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Old 31st December 2009, 07:07 PM   #1
Jim McDougall
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Thanks Kronckew yup I meant U.S. and I think there are probably a lot of 'last' charges depending on who's telling the story. Thats a great story about the German 'uhlans' in WWI, and indeed it seems even stranger with this truly anachronistic weapon ( then there will inevetably be the tales of the Polish lancers charging German tanks in WWII....primarily of course propoganda oriented).

Returning to the Civil War, the Union, clearly following certain European military traditions, decided to transform a couple of cavalry regiments into 'lancer' units. After the discussion already covering the miserable application of training with the sword, one can imagine the diastrous folly of this brainstorm. If I recall, I think it was Rush's lancers and I believe these were Pennsylvania units. While the use of the lance does not seem to have worked out too well, the units did serve with commensurate valor in a more conventional sense. I do not recall more detail, but the point was simply the anachronism element.

The lancer units that I believe did prove successful well into the 20th century were the famed 'Bengal Lancers' and a number of similar lancer units in the colorful native cavalry of the British Raj. I recall, as I have mentioned a number of times over the years, that I once visited an elderly British officer who had written an autobiography titled "Last of the Bengal Lancers".
He was Brigadier Francis Ingall who had served in Northwest Frontier Province in the early 1930's attached to I believe the 13th Bengal Lancers or its amalgamated counterpart. It was fantastic listening to him describe the 'hell for leather' charge on the plains in the Khyber regions, which was another of those 'last' cavalry charges (there was actually yet another I believe in Toungoo, Burma with British cavalry against Japanese in 1942).

Brigadier Ingall virtually lit up as he described this gallant charge, and showed me the huge M1912 officers cavalry sabre he had carried. In a poignant moment he glanced lovingly toward the fireplace, above which on a place of honor, was a portrait of his charger, "Eagerheart".
It was a day and a visit I will never forget.

All very best regards,
Jim

P.S. Kronckew, beautiful dogs, and the kepi looks good on ya, suh!!!
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Old 1st January 2010, 09:09 PM   #2
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I could dig around for some old threads but they do relate some practical notes on keeping swords sharp in the 19th century. In particular, some of the older SFI threads regarding this very topic. Files issued for keeping edges sharp, being gentle during insertion in metal scabbards, not using your sword for spitting meat over the fire, stuff like that.

As to last American use of swords, one example makes me wonder a bit about this particular Patton. Also in my files are pictures of the Peking horse marines, with their nickeled baskets. There was also a note over on Blade Forums somewhere about an American officer in Viet Nam dropping from a huey with sabre in hand (I have no hard reference for that, nor the sword type). I'll see if I can dig up that Boer War sharpening image as well. Well, my files sure are in a state of mess right now but here also some Prussians sharpening on some stone steps. Ok, here are the Boer boys.

Here is the old Don Nelson Thread
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5896

Jean's notes are always fun to follow.

Cheers and Happy New Year

GC
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Old 1st January 2010, 09:41 PM   #3
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Outstanding Glen!!!! Your files are a virtual Smithsonian of valuable material on sword history, thank you for sharing these. Also, thank you for sharing the link to the thread from 2002, with our friends Don Nelson and Scott Bubar, both of whom we lost in 2004. They are sincerely missed, and it makes me happy that here they have joined us again for yet another discussion.

That is a truly fascinating 'Patton' and it would be great to learn more about which unit or period this was from. Also, had never heard of the Peking Horse Marines, but clearly they are using 'Pattons'! This is exactly the kind of stuff I always hope for when I post, truly key information that adds to the subject being discussed, and expanding the collective knowledge at hand.

Interesting note on the guy dropping out of a Huey in Nam with a sabre.....I would guess purely a case of props, much in the manner of Robert Duvall in character in "Apocolypse Now" wearing the U.S. cavalry brim ...after all, these were 'Air Cavalry' and there were many cases of these guys carrying the hubris in thier own personal ways.

Jean's notes are very much fun to follow, and miss him as well, hopefully one day he will be posting again, and I wish him well with matters he is handling.

All very best wishes to you and everyone for a wonderful new year!

Jim
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Old 1st January 2010, 10:36 PM   #4
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The stenciled sword for an airborne LT name reads Morehouse. That example had been on a dealer site for a few years. I somehow don't think it belonged to David Morehouse (Psychic Warrior) but that might make sense as well because of his early military experience as the leader of an army ranger unit (later than any SE Asia activities we know of). That would be a pretty late use and attribution but the likelyhood of it being his is slim.

There is a good amount online about the horse marines and their last actions at the dawn of WWII. Seemingly serious about drilling with their Pattons and ponies, there are also other examples of later 20th century cavalry exercise. Pershing accounts of the campaign to Mexico may also relate troop use of the 1906 rebirth of the civil war light cavalry saber.

Cheers

GC
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Old 1st January 2010, 11:56 PM   #5
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One of your pictures shows the Prussian officers sharpening the blades of their swords against the steps of the French embassy, a purely symbolic gesture.
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Old 2nd January 2010, 08:53 AM   #6
Lee
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A most interesting thread. Early on in my sword collecting, I was told that many of the US military swords had been deliberately blunted before being sold as surplus. Is this just an unfounded speculation?
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Old 2nd January 2010, 08:10 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
A most interesting thread. Early on in my sword collecting, I was told that many of the US military swords had been deliberately blunted before being sold as surplus. Is this just an unfounded speculation?
Not true, imho. Few were sharpened to begin with.
In fact, the only sabers to retain their razor-sharp edge en masse are the Indian tulwars.
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Old 2nd January 2010, 08:22 PM   #8
Jim McDougall
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"...The 'Pershing Expedition' had hardly begin its operations into Mexico when the M1913 saber was declared excess weight and placed in storage in Columbus (N.M.) ".
"The Last Bright Blades" , Joseph William Turner, 1982, p.33

Apparantly the cavalry troopers in the Philippines and during the Spanish American War carried a M1892 .38 Cal. Colt revolver and a M1860 light cavalry sabre worn on the olive drab canvas 'Mills' belts wuth ammuniition.

Turner (op.cit. p.9) also notes that by 1904, the additional cavalry regiments approved by congress in 1901, resulted in the request for manufacture of new equipment, including sabres. The "...existing supply of old Civil War sabres was found wanting and on November 7, 1904 a contract was let to the Ames Sword Co. of Chicopee, Massachusetts".

These would be the M1906 pattern swords, which were simply cosmetically changed versions of the M1860, with an iron rather than brass hilt. There are some extremely rare prototypes termed 1905-06 experimental which do have some variation, but did not become production.

While the M1913 was produced through the LF&C contract of 1918, it really never saw combat (despite certain somewhat apocryphal accounts of its presence in WWI, probably at the whim of commanding officers). Its last known use was in the shameful action against the Veterans protest in 1932, though was not actually applied despite being wielded against unarmed crowds.

It seems almost ironic that there was still a little known variation of the sword produced in 1931. It was known as the Rock Island Arsenal M2, though obviously it was never produced in any number.

The order to discontinue the use of the sabre was by order of the Adjutant General Office on April 18,1934 (474.71, 3-15-34) , and in looking at the order item # 3 simply states that sabres on hand will be stored pending further instruction ("The Rock Island Arsenal M2: Americas Last Cavalry Sabre", Lt. C.W.T. Cooper,Gun Report, Vol. XXVIII, Dec.1972, p.20).

I was hoping that perhaps here might be some note pertaining to dulling blades if such order had existed, possibly if such order existed. Since the note, pending further instructions, existed, possibly subsequent orders were issued.
In the story about General Patton, the stalwart horse soldier, where it is said, "...the saddest moment in his life came when he stood at attention, weeping, as his cavalry regiment marched past to stack thier sabres for the last time"....it seems that accounts of this event suggest that it was during WWII ("The Long Gray Line", Atkinson, p.58 ; "Blood Rites", B. Ehrenreich, p.152), and that would indicate the sabres remained in use in some cases until then.

Much as the apocryphal accounts of swords being deliberately left dull to avoid cleaving into bone in the Indian wars period, and the stories about them being left dull during the Civil War to prevent harming the soldiers themselves and thier horses, it seems doubtful they would have been dulled as put into storage..which doesnt seem to have been largely the case.
By the time of WWII, it seems most of the stores of M1913's had been sent to Australia for conversion into machetes or sent for fabrication of trench knives (known as 'Anderson stilettos' for the manufacturing firm). These were apparantly made with the blade alone, each blade sectioned into three for the dagger blades.

I would be inclined to believe that swords produced were probably not sharpened to razor edge until actually issued or in use, and that the 'factory' edge probably was relatively dull.

It really is an interesting aspect, and I'd very much like to know if anyone knows of actual orders to dull blades, also when was the Patton event when the final stacking of swords took place.

All best regards,
Jim
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