Ancient, armed Indian from Kabul

[Aqtai]

Lord Egerton of Tatton's 'Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour' has a plate with a similar armour, also from the Zarkoe Selo collection. The mail camail in particular has a strong resemblance to the one above.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

B.I. quote: "also, does anyone have any thoughts on the lance. the piece does not look eastern (oriental) to me at all. the grip/lance shoe shows a european style. i know that this style didnt exist in india, but am guessing it doesnt follow with rest of the east. anyone?"

There are planty of bi-headed lances in the Indian history, it was mostly the Mughals influenced by their Timurid origins that head two heads while Hindus preffered a simple stopping ball if anything at the lesser end of their traditional lances. Also the hair tuft is likely an evolution from the Timurid-Mongol proto-tugra of the stepe warriors that were part of the nobility ancestry. Also the Naga had large spears with hair tufts but shaped differently and I would say have no connection to here,
Places to see such spears are the Mughal miniatures, I am looking over a reprint of Babur-Nama manuscript drawing from 1597 of the Delhi Museum. If it wouldnt be for the exact tufts of hair (whom would hardly survive the passing of years anyhow) there are many Mughal lances like this one.
Lord Egerton's "Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour" from where Agtai posted the previous gravure, has a denominational plate of many weapons at pages 22 & 23 where he introduces the double headed lance (spear) as named tschehouta.
In the minibooks from the Men-at-Arms series in the "Mughul India 1504-1761" plates B & C or even on the cover have examples of the Mughal cavalry carrying hair tufted lances. Horse tail tufts, died or not were popular ornamentsand readily available inthe horse culture.

[B.I]

it is not the head, nor the hair tufts that i have a problem with. it is the lance 'shoe' which gived the impression of a 'hilted' grip, which is not an indian design at all. this seems european, but am happy to hear any other theories.
i agree, the only true source to start with is miniatures or sculpture, and the miniatures i have seen show a spear (held in the middle), as apposed to a long lance. the lance butts of the south are well known in form, and depicted well in sculpture and images. also, the moghul style is the spear, with a similar 'ball and spike' shoe, or in some cases double ended. we can all agree the artist
is of merit, and so the depiction accurate. to my eye, the bottom of the spear could be carved wood and made to be held there. if there are 'many mughal lanced like this one', i'd appreciate a scan for i am not aware of them.
keen for more opinions and possible back up.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

B.I. the dilema is with the artist not with the spear itself. He (the artist) was not Indo-Persian or nor has he ever seen a live Mughal rider ever but he had likely seen many Cossack cavalrymen and their lances, its a Tsarskoe-Selo gravure not Mughal artistry (besides the lance I see much imperfections on the helmet, on the mirror armor plates and then there is the sword, which I wont even go there...) The drawing you reproduced from Lord Egerton is a perfect example of how a armorial depictions should be like, compared they are like like a race car in two different images: one drawing in action of a good street artist and one draft from the studio, made by an engineer.

[B.I]

i think you misunderstand my original enquiry. i was asking where people thought the lance came from. the lance is not a figment of the artists imagination, it exists in the collection, as do all the pieces illustrated in the catalogue.
if it is misrepresented in the image, it is down to the artist's lack of knowledge of arms. my question and enquiry still remains. does anyone think this could be oriental, and are familiar with this style of shoe butt on eastern weapons.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

It would be interesting to see if anyone has a Tsarskoe-Selo catalogue with photographs of such lance ? Or a second drawing of the same lance, perhaps ? If anyone probably Wolviex, Jens or Jim does ...

[Jim McDougall]

I have been reading this thread with great interest, and as always, Jens has posed a fascinating topic. There have been some great observations on this paradoxical figure, especially the incredibly astute observation by Rick that the sword carried is a dha, with compelling agreement by Andrew and Mark whose expertise on these is clear.

I think Brian's assessment of the figure as being composite depicting holdings within the Musee d' Tsarskoe-Selo is right on target. Although I don't have a copy of this catalog, I think it is available in reprint, and sounds like another item I would like to have a copy of. As Brian has well described, in the period when this work was compiled, there was very little material on arms and armour, especially oriental items, which were viewed primarily as exotic and interesting trophies or collectibles by Europeans.

While looking at the illustration, and overlooking the fact that we presume this is an artists impression of an 'armed Indian from Kabul' using components from a museum being worn grouped together, I felt compelled to determine how these incongruous items ended up worn by an Indian, and why he was in Kabul. In addition to the already well placed comments, just a few notes (keeping in mind the hypothetical perspective).

Afghanistan has always been largely divided, and very diverse ethnically. The eastern part of the country is primarily Pathan with that being the common thread that denominates the many independant and often at odds tribes.
The country has as been noted, been a suzerein of Persia mostly, while in the same manner annexed nominally by the Mughals. This included regions of now Pakistan, Baluchistan and Sind. The regions in Afghanistan were of mostly the three primary city states of Herat, Kandahar and Kabul. As has also been noted, while Afghans, especially the Pathans, could hardly be subdued, they would become mercenaries for the Mughals.

Concerning the costume, for which good comparisons have already been shown, I would like to note that H. Robinson ("Oriental Arms" p.101) there is a description of fabric armour from central India and Rajputana that seemed to derive from that of the steppes and Central Asia. Apparantly the quilted fabric included a hoodlike cap which was sometimes fitted with a metal nasal, and a long straight coat. This would seem a variation of this, with the char aina added. I believe that the ostrich feather was highly favored by Rajputs as a heraldic or regimental device as well.
On the lance, which seems the key item unresolved here, I can see what Brian is referring to on the shoe, which seems to have some resemblance to the carved wood and fluted styles seen on many early jousting type lances of Europe. The flattened and fluted orb style is however seen on a number of oriental lances as seen in Stone and it seems Mahratta type lances have similar elements, but this needs more research.

While I can agree that warriors of Pathan tribes would likely never have worn such costume, even as mercenaries for the Mughals, the Afghans to the west seem to have been more receptive to outside influences in arms and armour, much as they were in the latter 19th century. During the British Raj the Afghan army adopted many British styles including the Albert helmets and even wore a form of kilt in some units.

The dha? There I think we return to artistic license as I cannot imagine these finding use in these regions, even with the plausible suggestion by Mark of having come from earlier campaigns in Burma.

The period intended for the figure, probably latter 18th century.

Best regards,
Jim