FRINGIA

ariel · 20th December 2009, 05:09 PM

I am with Teodor here.

First, if Thuringia gave birth to Fringia, what happened to the "u" sound?

Second, transmutation of Th to F usually goes from W.European to Slavic languages. As an example ( just to make Teodor happy), Theodor became Fyodor in Russian. I thought for quite some time about a reverse move, and could not find an example. Anyone?

Third, the Fringia blades came from different places in Europe; why would ( for example)Italians be influenced by a German locality? German blades in India gave birth to a curved saber called Alemani; but the name is French in origin.

A crazy thought: was Francia ( another popular label) just a result of a mis-spelling, whereby the horizontal tick in G was missed and the letter became C ? Either Western masters were not exactly literate or the Eastern ones just copied the mark without understanding of the meaning ... Kind of like me re-drawing Chinese hieroglyphs :-)

Lee · 18th February 2014, 12:01 PM

Received in my email from Poland:

Quote:

Word "FRINGIA" encraved into a blade stands for "Franciscus Rákóczi In Nomine Gentis Insurgit Armis". It was a secret word used by members of Hungarian Independence Movement amongst Austro-Hungarian army officers in XVIIIth century to discern themselves from other officers. There were not many of them and they kept low-profile so it is rather 'secret' knowledge

I have no source other than verbal story from hungarian sword master though, but it sounds fairly legit.

fernando · 18th February 2014, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee, quoting email from Poland

... I have no source other than verbal story from hungarian sword master though, but it sounds fairly legit. :

... And worth keeping on a permanent basis

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2014, 03:32 PM

This is absolutely fantastic! and it is excellent to have these older threads now archived being brought back to the fore with new information. The purpose of threads here has always been to collect and discuss information so our comprehensive understanding of these kinds of details advances.

It seems of course that the FRINGIA word or acronym is well placed in use by the time of the Bathory's (Stefan V Bathory 1430-1493; and Stephen Bathory 1533-1586) but it seems more likely used on the Hungarian sabres of latter 16th century. According to Nadolski (1974, p.35) these were becoming quite popular in line with the example belonging to Stephen Bathory along with the 'sickle' marks and 'GENOA' and 'FRINGIA' markings.

These sabres were colloquially termed 'Batorowki'. In the turbulent political times then their counterparts were sabres with likenesses of Sigismund III Vasa which were termed 'Zygmuntowki' .

In "Edged Weapons: Sabres of the Habsburg Monarchy 16-20th Centuries" (Petr Konipsky and Petr Moudry, Prague, 1991) on p.41 there is a sabre of Austrian hussars officer of 18th century, with the usual sun, moon, star motif and FRINGIA.
As noted by the anonymous contributor here, this new information is most enlightening concerning the context for this well established word or acrostic.
It would appear of course that the earlier used word was realigned to represent the patriotic acronym referring to Francis II Rokoczi (1676-1735) who led uprisings (1703-1711) against the Habsburgs. The use of these kinds of acronyms and acrostic symbolism seems well known in the turbulence of political intriques and conflict well known in these regions, so this is most helpful information.

In "Liberty and the Search for Identity" (Iven Zolton Denes, 2006, p.221) with reference to the Hungarian gentry c.1860, it is noted that "...the gentry intended to realize this new program with a number of refuedalizing actions and they started to use their FRINGIA coats of arms and titles of nobility again, together with all the relics of old feudal life".

As always, the weapons carry these indicators and clues of rich historic heritage, and act as our guides as we follow their lead in uncovering what we may not have otherwise realized.

Lee, thank you so very much for posting this information and bringing this thread back, and deepest thanks to our contributor .

Very best regards,
Jim

cornelistromp · 19th February 2014, 04:22 PM

learned that this inscription Fringia has at present several variants of its interpretation:

1 It is a name derived from the Latin Frangere - split , broken

2 An abbreviation of words Fridericus Rex In Germania Imperator Augustus ,German Emperor Friedrich III or Frederick III called the Peaceful , the Holy Roman Emperor 1415 - 1493

3 An abbreviation of words;
a. Franciscus Rakoczy In Nomine Gentis Insurgit Armis ,Francis Rakoczy in the name of the nation to rise up in arms. Prince Francis Rakoczy of Transylvania 1676 - 1735
b . Franciscus Rakoczy In Nomine Gentis Impetit Austrian, Francis Rakoczy in the name of national Austrian attack. the same Francis as mentioned above under 3a.
=Francis II Rokoczi , please see Jim's post nr 30

because it occurs over a longer time span on (mainly) sables, they are perhaps all applicable.

best,
jasper

corrado26 · 29th August 2016, 03:53 PM

This English summery of a Long German article I found in my Archive section:

Regarding to the inscription FRINGIA one has to get like with the unorthodox idea that its dissemination in Hungary under the flag of FRANGIA(probably also of FRNGIA) from the East, and in a significant time interval, from the West with the characters FRINDIA /FRINIA/FRINGA/FRINGIA took place independently from each other. The inscription`s starting point, namely Italy, was the same one. The sign FRANGIA (and FRENGIA as well) might have been displaced by western blades due to two facts: the small quantity on the one and the decline of Italian blade exports into the Ottoman Empire on the other hand. But this theory has a snag ± it is not proved that Italian blades with inscriptions FRANGIA and FRENGIA have been produced for the Ottomans in the 16th century. However, sabre blades with a Jelmán, representing the Kilij type of the Seljuks, were used merely by the Ottoman, Hungarian and ± partially ± Polish cavalry. It is to exclude that the manufacturing of such blades in Italy was done after orderings by Hungarian noble men. In the light of the political and military circumstances, it is reasonable to suppose that the Ottomans provided
the Transylvaniansand Hungarians,standing under their guardianship at this time,with weapons.The blade cha-racters, appearing now and again only, did not make sense to the Hungarians. But they regarded the inscription as a rarity. The "Turkish-Italian" theory designed above can be persuasive finally after a successful search for remaining blades with FRINGIA inscriptions within Italy collections and former Italian production centers. Until then we have to refer to the compilation by L.G. Boccia and E.T. Coelho with the conclusion that especially Genoese blades with the sign FRINGIA would have guaranteed and supplied the Turkish weapon market.
corrado26

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd September 2016, 07:32 AM

"Ferengi" and similar terms are Arabic names for European traders, or for Westerners in general. The name is likely derived from the Arabic word faranj or ifranj, or Persian farangi, meaning "Franks". In Ethiopia, ferenj or ferenji has the same meaning, as does farang in Thai. The source of the name is likely from the Byzantine Greeks who were the Westerners' neighbors; this usage spread to the Near East, Asia, Africa and even China. Greeks still sometimes use fragkoi (φράγκοι as an exonym for Western Europeans, and the modern Greek term ferengios (φερέγγυος, ο φέρων- εγγύηση, ο δυνάμενος να εγγυηθεί literally translates as "the able to guarantee (himself)", the trust-worthy, and not only in a financial way! The term was used as a partially derogatory term in India to denote the British.. Thus I suggest, simply put, it refers to a trusted European blade...

19th February 2014, 04:22 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	learned that this inscription Fringia has at present several variants of its interpretation: 1 It is a name derived from the Latin Frangere - split , broken 2 An abbreviation of words Fridericus Rex In Germania Imperator Augustus ,German Emperor Friedrich III or Frederick III called the Peaceful , the Holy Roman Emperor 1415 - 1493 3 An abbreviation of words; a. Franciscus Rakoczy In Nomine Gentis Insurgit Armis ,Francis Rakoczy in the name of the nation to rise up in arms. Prince Francis Rakoczy of Transylvania 1676 - 1735 b . Franciscus Rakoczy In Nomine Gentis Impetit Austrian, Francis Rakoczy in the name of national Austrian attack. the same Francis as mentioned above under 3a. =Francis II Rokoczi , please see Jim's post nr 30 because it occurs over a longer time span on (mainly) sables, they are perhaps all applicable. best, jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 19th February 2014 at 04:44 PM.

20th December 2009, 05:09 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am with Teodor here. First, if Thuringia gave birth to Fringia, what happened to the "u" sound? Second, transmutation of Th to F usually goes from W.European to Slavic languages. As an example ( just to make Teodor happy), Theodor became Fyodor in Russian. I thought for quite some time about a reverse move, and could not find an example. Anyone? Third, the Fringia blades came from different places in Europe; why would ( for example)Italians be influenced by a German locality? German blades in India gave birth to a curved saber called Alemani; but the name is French in origin. A crazy thought: was Francia ( another popular label) just a result of a mis-spelling, whereby the horizontal tick in G was missed and the letter became C ? Either Western masters were not exactly literate or the Eastern ones just copied the mark without understanding of the meaning ... Kind of like me re-drawing Chinese hieroglyphs :-)

19th February 2014, 03:32 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	This is absolutely fantastic! and it is excellent to have these older threads now archived being brought back to the fore with new information. The purpose of threads here has always been to collect and discuss information so our comprehensive understanding of these kinds of details advances. It seems of course that the FRINGIA word or acronym is well placed in use by the time of the Bathory's (Stefan V Bathory 1430-1493; and Stephen Bathory 1533-1586) but it seems more likely used on the Hungarian sabres of latter 16th century. According to Nadolski (1974, p.35) these were becoming quite popular in line with the example belonging to Stephen Bathory along with the 'sickle' marks and 'GENOA' and 'FRINGIA' markings. These sabres were colloquially termed 'Batorowki'. In the turbulent political times then their counterparts were sabres with likenesses of Sigismund III Vasa which were termed 'Zygmuntowki' . In "Edged Weapons: Sabres of the Habsburg Monarchy 16-20th Centuries" (Petr Konipsky and Petr Moudry, Prague, 1991) on p.41 there is a sabre of Austrian hussars officer of 18th century, with the usual sun, moon, star motif and FRINGIA. As noted by the anonymous contributor here, this new information is most enlightening concerning the context for this well established word or acrostic. It would appear of course that the earlier used word was realigned to represent the patriotic acronym referring to Francis II Rokoczi (1676-1735) who led uprisings (1703-1711) against the Habsburgs. The use of these kinds of acronyms and acrostic symbolism seems well known in the turbulence of political intriques and conflict well known in these regions, so this is most helpful information. In "Liberty and the Search for Identity" (Iven Zolton Denes, 2006, p.221) with reference to the Hungarian gentry c.1860, it is noted that "...the gentry intended to realize this new program with a number of refuedalizing actions and they started to use their FRINGIA coats of arms and titles of nobility again, together with all the relics of old feudal life". As always, the weapons carry these indicators and clues of rich historic heritage, and act as our guides as we follow their lead in uncovering what we may not have otherwise realized. Lee, thank you so very much for posting this information and bringing this thread back, and deepest thanks to our contributor . Very best regards, Jim

29th August 2016, 03:53 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	This English summery of a Long German article I found in my Archive section: Regarding to the inscription FRINGIA one has to get like with the unorthodox idea that its dissemination in Hungary under the flag of FRANGIA(probably also of FRNGIA) from the East, and in a significant time interval, from the West with the characters FRINDIA /FRINIA/FRINGA/FRINGIA took place independently from each other. The inscription`s starting point, namely Italy, was the same one. The sign FRANGIA (and FRENGIA as well) might have been displaced by western blades due to two facts: the small quantity on the one and the decline of Italian blade exports into the Ottoman Empire on the other hand. But this theory has a snag ± it is not proved that Italian blades with inscriptions FRANGIA and FRENGIA have been produced for the Ottomans in the 16th century. However, sabre blades with a Jelmán, representing the Kilij type of the Seljuks, were used merely by the Ottoman, Hungarian and ± partially ± Polish cavalry. It is to exclude that the manufacturing of such blades in Italy was done after orderings by Hungarian noble men. In the light of the political and military circumstances, it is reasonable to suppose that the Ottomans provided the Transylvaniansand Hungarians,standing under their guardianship at this time,with weapons.The blade cha-racters, appearing now and again only, did not make sense to the Hungarians. But they regarded the inscription as a rarity. The "Turkish-Italian" theory designed above can be persuasive finally after a successful search for remaining blades with FRINGIA inscriptions within Italy collections and former Italian production centers. Until then we have to refer to the compilation by L.G. Boccia and E.T. Coelho with the conclusion that especially Genoese blades with the sign FRINGIA would have guaranteed and supplied the Turkish weapon market. corrado26

2nd September 2016, 07:32 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	"Ferengi" and similar terms are Arabic names for European traders, or for Westerners in general. The name is likely derived from the Arabic word faranj or ifranj, or Persian farangi, meaning "Franks". In Ethiopia, ferenj or ferenji has the same meaning, as does farang in Thai. The source of the name is likely from the Byzantine Greeks who were the Westerners' neighbors; this usage spread to the Near East, Asia, Africa and even China. Greeks still sometimes use fragkoi (φράγκοι as an exonym for Western Europeans, and the modern Greek term ferengios (φερέγγυος, ο φέρων- εγγύηση, ο δυνάμενος να εγγυηθεί literally translates as "the able to guarantee (himself)", the trust-worthy, and not only in a financial way! The term was used as a partially derogatory term in India to denote the British.. Thus I suggest, simply put, it refers to a trusted European blade...