Ethics and Policies

[Marcokeris]

[QUOTE=guwaya]What would you like to see achieved by any upcoming changes in policy?


.....How can this be done? I also don't have a recipe for it. I just remain of the conviction that prohibitions and restrictions don't help. (The death penalty does not reduce the number of murders!).

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

.....How can this be done? I also don't have a recipe for it. I just remain of the conviction that prohibitions and restrictions don't help. (The death penalty does not reduce the number of murders!).

Yes Marco, i have already agreed with this....BUT you also cannot let thr "murders" run free in your society either so some kind of restrictions are unavoidable to protect the rest of the community.

[A. G. Maisey]

What would you like to see achieved by any upcoming changes in policy?

My question above seems to have been misunderstood.

I was not asking for solutions, or ways in which to achieve some outcome or another, but only what we would like that outcome to be.

The means by which it might be achieved remains the responsibility of site management.

As an example, my wife could ask me:-

"what would you like to eat for dinner?"

my answer could be:-

"chickpea curry and rice"

how that chickpea curry and rice finds its way to the table in front of me is not my problem :- that problem of producing chickpea curry and rice is exclusively the province of my wife.

Similarly with this matter currently before us, we do not need to suggest the ways in which outcomes might be achieved, all we need to do is to suggest what we would like to see achieved. Site management will provide the means by which the outcomes may be achieved.

Guwaya:-

To the statistic somewhen later as I don't have the script actually with me but if I remember right there is a big fault included.

Do you mean Martin Kerner's statistical analysis contains error?

I could not find that error. I would be very grateful if when you have the text of his work at hand, you could direct me to the erroneous section.

However, even though his actual statistical work may be accurate, his conclusions are less than adequate, most particularly his conclusions drawn from a complete misunderstanding of both cultural and technological bases.

[drdavid]

This is an important thread and one which should enhance the value of the warung. I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of promoting ethical behaviour and as Alan Maisey has said using the utilitarian approach is probably the most functional in this circumstance. Promoting ethical behaviour is one thing, having all the members of the warung do so is another.

If I might offer a few thoughts .
In the code of conduct points #5

Do not engage in any commercially oriented behavior

and #7

Behave in a respectful manner towards other members, and their opinions

are particularly pertinent in this discussion. Point #5 is fairly obvious, point #7 is asking us not to treat our fellow warung members badly, that includes deceiving them as to the true purpose of our questions, and using their information for our own commercial gain without their express permission. I think it might be a good idea that all new members (and quite possibly all existing members) be asked to confirm that they have read and accept the code of conduct of the warung before being allowed to post. Secondly I think that a moratorium period between being accepted as a member and being allowed to post (2-4 weeks) might disuade opportunistic behaviour. Finally I believe any changes decided on as a result of this thread should be made to allow the warung to improve its role as an educational and sharing group and enhance the ability of the moderators to avoid exploitation of the group.
David

[David]

Originally Posted by drdavid

I think it might be a good idea that all new members (and quite possibly all existing members) be asked to confirm that they have read and accept the code of conduct of the warung before being allowed to post.

An excellent idea David.

[Naga Sasra]

Dear Forum Members,

As I stated back in post # 62, I believe any change of the forum rules must start at the registration level. A carefully written questionere followed by a statement and a simple check on either I agree or I disagree to the forum rules, will go a long way dealing with the Group B potential members.

This would also allow the moderators to act swiftly in the event the rules are violated.

But I will of cause leave any ruling to our very capable moderators, and please consider this just a suggestion.

[David]

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

But I will of cause leave any ruling to our very capable moderators, and please consider this just a suggestion.

Eric, your suggestions are always welcome.

[guwaya]

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

Dear Forum Members,

As I stated back in post # 62, I believe any change of the forum rules must start at the registration level. A carefully written questionere followed by a statement and a simple check on either I agree or I disagree to the forum rules, will go a long way dealing with the Group B potential members.

This would also allow the moderators to act swiftly in the event the rules are violated.

But I will of cause leave any ruling to our very capable moderators, and please consider this just a suggestion.

Hello to the Forum,

As I just saw that member brekele is offering a formerly here presentet keris sundang parallel at the swap forum and at ebay - there two other keris with less informations - I would like to support the here made proposals from Naga Sasra, as I also think it has to start with the registration process.

I also think it would be a good ides to make a brief describing of someone's interests in following the forum compulsive - together with the from Naga Sasra proposed questionaries. But this also Naga Sasra already stated.

Anyway - this practise would mean to invest some time in the beginning, a kind of giving and not just taking.

[Paul Duffy]

I've been reading this thread with great interest.I am a keris collector,not a dealer although I am mindful of values and asking prices.
I agree with the words in #5,"do not engage in commercially orientated behavior" and 7 'behave in a respectful manner towards other members and their opinions".

I have been collecting antique arms edged weapons for many years,even before the internet and ebay.These are wonderful tools,eg this site exists and is used.However I agree with Alan Maisey's comments on identifying and buying items from internet photos.I don't,and I've read many comments and complaints in magazines and websites from people who are dissatisfied after buying off the net.

In a perfect world we wouldn't be concerned about "covert dealers" etc,but it's not a perfect world.In past years I've believed stories about "rare finds" and provenance,bought something, only to find out later,sometimes several years later that the stories weren't true.In response to queries to dealers I've been told that"Oh,I believed him".

As to options on policy changes:
1 I agree that dealers should be open and transperent,and presume this would be at the initial registration process.Then if there is a problem,their access can be blocked,and perhaps the Forum could have a list of delinquent members.

2Dealers could lodge a deposit which could be forfeited.

3 The Forum could endeavour to organise a return & refund system.Although I appreciate this would be very difficult due to the international nature of the Forum and it's members.

The Forum is successful,it does have a good reputation.I've thought about how the international auction houses build and maintain reputations.Good quality catalogues electronic and paper,eg Herman Historica,who sometimes list keris,Fischers in Luzern,Sothebies & Christies,Bonhams etc.These houses also have carefully set out terms & conditions which include a right of return and refund.Of course they charge fees to the vendor and purchaser.Can similar terms be applied here?

There has been embarasment when auction house have been "outed",and this will affect their business.
This may be difficult due to the international character of the internet,as an item can be listed anywhere in the world,and be available instantly to the world,without being inspected by a representative of the Forum.

Does the Forum want to accept the responsibility of being a "dealer",probably not.
Does this lead to the conclusion that we as members have to be "self regulating", yes I think it does.

I joined to learn,and gather info.The photos and illustrations are very helpful,so are the commentaries.I acknowledge that it is up to me to accept the quality or value of comments.

I hope that the Forum will continue to benefit pure collectors.

[guwaya]

[/QUOTE]

Alan :

Do you mean Martin Kerner's statistical analysis contains error?

I could not find that error. I would be very grateful if when you have the text of his work at hand, you could direct me to the erroneous section.


I definitely will do - it will last - but you will get it.

guwaya

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Guwaya.

Please bear in mind:-

I am talking about only the statistical work, not the conclusions that Martin Kerner drew from that work.

I am not a mathematician, so I had Martin Kerner's compilations and calculations reviewed by a mathematician some years ago, and it was given a clean bill of health by this person. In fact, I would have been surprised if his calculations had been incorrect, as I understand that in his professional life he was either a statistician or mathematician who had been in charge of the Swiss govt. organisation responsible for Swiss weights and measures.

However, I will welcome any identification of error that you can point out in Martin Kerner's statistical work, as in my opinion this analysis is too important to be tainted by error, and your identification of this error will permit us to carry out the necessary corrections.

[Gavin Nugent]

A questiona about the future,

As I have noted in an earlier entry I deal.
How would it be clearly proposed that if I for example presented a kris for comment and discussion and then found something more personal to me and wished to sell this Kris to buy what I desired more....By what approach would be considered suitable by staff to sell this Kris now? Would if be in the form of a public announcement or a case of tough love mate, wait the 3 months or be booted? Or would it be recommended that I don't show and tell Keris at all so the motions do not have to be actioned thus depriving the forum of somethings that may never be seen otherwise???

Gav

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

How would it be clearly proposed that if I for example presented a kris for comment and discussion and then found something more personal to me and wished to sell this Kris to buy what I desired more....By what approach would be considered suitable by staff to sell this Kris now? Would if be in the form of a public announcement or a case of tough love mate, wait the 3 months or be booted? Or would it be recommended that I don't show and tell Keris at all so the motions do not have to be actioned thus depriving the forum of somethings that may never be seen otherwise???

We are still working out the details Gav, but first of all, the moratorium on sale will only apply to the Swap forum. We cannot keep you from selling your keris on your website, eBay or anywhere else. You won't be able to make a link to your sale in the Swap, but other venues of sale will remain open to you.
We can and will ask that you don't use statements made by members here to support your sale at these other sites without the express permission of those members.
I also doubt that the time frame will be anywhere near as long as 90 days.
I think we will ask that if you do put something up for sale somewhere that has been discussed on the forum that you alert the moderators first so that we can lock that thread since we cannot have discussion of items that are currently up for sale.

[Rick]

Gav,
We will most likely have a separate forum for keris sales *only* in The Warung section of this site .

If you list a keris there you will agree to a certain amount of exclusive time (10 days ? currently undecided) before you may list it elsewhere .

We are also likely to revamp the dealer links page .

As has been mentioned before there will be some changes coming to Swap for the other forums as well .

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

I also doubt that the time frame will be anywhere near as long as 90 days.
I think we will ask that if you do put something up for sale somewhere that has been discussed on the forum that you alert the moderators first so that we can lock that thread since we cannot have discussion of items that are currently up for sale.

Thank you David, thank you Rick.

A quick question as I cannot see it in the sticky, the question of "for sale" items not being discussed. I thought this was the case but I can only see reference to live auctions noted in the sticky, can you point me to the straight "For sale" quotes.

Thanks

Gav

Edit; I have read the whole sticky again and I see the second last post by Lee mentions it very quickly, perhaps it can be more clearly noted, I am sure moderators can edit any post from any time.