Please help on 1796 HC sword marks

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by celtan

An M?

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop". Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop". Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it.
My Regards,
Norman.

Thanks Norman,
I have five P1796 LC swords at the moment.
I bought two of them because they looked a bit sad for themselves and were without grips. I gave them a light clean to remove active rust and regripped them. Very enjoyable.
They will be sold on soon to make way for my P1796 HC sword.
I know that you bought Fernando's P1796 HC sword. What is your area of interest?
I don't think that my P1796 HC sword will arrive this side of Christmas. I will update the thread when it does.
Ian

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

... I know that you bought Fernando's P1796 HC sword...

How in hell?

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

How in hell?

Swap Forum.

Ian

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s .

Fernando

.

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s .

Fernando

.

Thanks Fernando. I'll have a good look with a magnifying glass.
Ian

[Dmitry]

Ian, I don't know if you have this Osprey book, but it might come handy.
OTTO VON PIVKA - THE PORTUGUESE ARMY OF THE NAPOLEONIC WARS
A very decent concise summary of the Portuguese forces, uniforms, etc, especially considering that it is in English.

It's available for preview here - http://books.google.com/books?id=FdL...age&q=&f=false

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Ian, I don't know if you have this Osprey book, but it might come handy.
OTTO VON PIVKA - THE PORTUGUESE ARMY OF THE NAPOLEONIC WARS
A very decent concise summary of the Portuguese forces, uniforms, etc, especially considering that it is in English.

It's available for preview here - http://books.google.com/books?id=FdL...age&q=&f=false

Hello Dmitry,
I have many of the Osprey books but not this one. Thank you.

Ian

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ian,
My main interest lies with Indian weaponry but this year I have been fortunate in picking up some 18th and early 19th Cent British swords, including a 1796 H.C. Troopers sword, courtesy of Fernando as you spotted. This has rekindled my interest in this period which was my main area of collecting when I was a teenager ( some time ago I hasten to say). All my pieces from way back then were eventually sold in pursuit of wine, women etc., in hindsight it wasn't a bad deal but now I'm looking to reinstate some of my old collection so always on the lookout. To be honest my tastes are quite catholic so a nice piece from any period and any culture and a user is liable to pique my interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s .

Fernando

.

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

If you check the Osprey series you'll see _many_ illustrations showing Napoleonic Spanish Forces wielding 1796s. The possibility of this being a Spanish sword should not be dismissively discounted.

The amount of British supplies provided to Spanish Armies after 1808 was simply staggering, previous enemies or not. I can now understand why the British were so royally miffed when that equally Royal AH of Ferdinand VII went back to bed with the French, very soon after the Napoleonic Wars.

OTOH, I must admit that _while the French were allies_ and not invaders, they were good allies too. It is said that the invasion of Spain did cost old Nappy the war.

Confusing Times!

Best


M

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

[Jim McDougall]

Manolo, it is indeed surprising the numbers of British weapons that ended up in Spain during this period. In discussions over the years concerning the so called 'Berber' sabres that became associated with Spanish Morocco via Mr. Tirri's well known book, and now seem more likely to be from the 'Spanish Main' from Cuba to South America and Mexico's gulf coast....these seem almost invariably mounted with British M1796 light cavalry blades with tips dramatically profiled.
I have seen other South American swords of mid 19th century also with British blades of the Napoleonic period.

These markings are on the langet of a M1796 light cavalry sabre, and I am wondering if they might be associated with Spanish markings:
Cs A
4
43


All best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

I read something more like C. ia 4 ta 45 (or 46, or 43), which would stand for weapon forty-plus of the 4th Company. You are the one who can
actually confirm it with a lighted loupe / magnifying glass.

Now, the ia / sA could also be a 15..., 15th Rgm?

BR

M


"En su corcel cuando sale la luna
aparece el bravo zorro
al hombre de mal él sabrá castigar
marcando la Zeta de Zorro"

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Manolo, it is indeed surprising the numbers of British weapons that ended up in Spain during this period. In discussions over the years concerning the so called 'Berber' sabres that became associated with Spanish Morocco via Mr. Tirri's well known book, and now seem more likely to be from the 'Spanish Main' from Cuba to South America and Mexico's gulf coast....these seem almost invariably mounted with British M1796 light cavalry blades with tips dramatically profiled.
I have seen other South American swords of mid 19th century also with British blades of the Napoleonic period.

These markings are on the langet of a M1796 light cavalry sabre, and I am wondering if they might be associated with Spanish markings:
Cs A
4
43


All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

I read something more like C. ia 4 ta 45 (or 46, or 43), which would stand for weapon forty-plus of the 4th Company. You are the one who can
actually confirm it with a lighted loupe / magnifying glass.

Now, the ia / sA could also be a 15..., 15th Rgm?

BR

M


"En su corcel cuando sale la luna
aparece el bravo zorro
al hombre de mal él sabrá castigar
marcando la Zeta de Zorro"

LOL!!!! Those pesky papparazzi's!!!! How did they get this picture of me in my sword research disguise, on the neverending quest for those elusive references !
Outstanding Manolo !, ya got me there.

I wish I could get a better photo of these markings, they really are as I showed though, the Cs and an A, the numeral 4 and below 43.

It is distinctly a British light cav 1796, and I've probably had it 30 years now, again, not available right now.

All the best,
Jim

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Guys,

If you check the Osprey series you'll see _many_ illustrations showing Napoleonic Spanish Forces wielding 1796s. The possibility of this being a Spanish sword should not be dismissively discounted.

The amount of British supplies provided to Spanish Armies after 1808 was simply staggering, previous enemies or not. I can now understand why the British were so royally miffed when that equally Royal AH of Ferdinand VII went back to bed with the French, very soon after the Napoleonic Wars.

OTOH, I must admit that _while the French were allies_ and not invaders, they were good allies too. It is said that the invasion of Spain did cost old Nappy the war.

Confusing Times!

Best


M

Manolo/Fernando,
If the sword was Spanish wouldn't 2nd be 'segundo' not 'segunda'.
The number 2 has an A after it, not a O.
ian

[celtan]

Hi Ian,

Compañia has the feminine genre. Regimiento is of the masculine genre.

So 4 a would be Cuarta (4th) Compañia. To that, you can add that Cia. is also an accepted abbreviation for Compañia.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Those pesky romance verbs, tenses, adverbs and genres.

(OTOH, our pronunciation is more predictable ie. men ace / menace )

: )

PD: Just think about Spanglish in NY and LA. Now you have a headache..!

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Manolo/Fernando,

If the sword was Spanish wouldn't 2nd be 'segundo' not 'segunda'.
The number 2 has an A after it, not a O.
ian

[fernando]

Dear Ian,

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

I can read that Portuguese Regiments (cavalry or other) were designated by names until 1806, date in which they started to be treated with numbers.
But i find no clue of Regiments being numbered with Roman figures.
If this is indeed a Portuguese sword, i guess the owner practiced a personal method in its marking that (maybe) only he could decipher.
I am deeply sorry to be of no help .
Fernando

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

Dear Ian,


I can read that Portuguese Regiments (cavalry or other) were designated by names until 1806, date in which they started to be treated with numbers.
But i find no clue of Regiments being numbered with Roman figures.
If this is indeed a Portuguese sword, i guess the owner practiced a personal method in its marking that (maybe) only he could decipher.
I am deeply sorry to be of no help .
Fernando

Never mind Fernando,
Thanks for your help anyway. I guess that the markings will just have to remain a bit of a mystery. I think that the sword saw plenty of action and a long life. The blade should be 1 1/2 inches wide . In places the blade has lost nearly 1/4 inch through excessive sharpening.
Ian

[Ian Knight]

The sword fitted with its new grip, made by myself. Rivet still to replace.
Ian

[fernando]

Great work; well done.
Fernando

[celtan]

Beautiful results.

I must confess to be envious of your abilities, I have no idea how to dismount a hilt or replate silver finish...

Best

M

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

The sword fitted with its new grip, made by myself. Rivet still to replace.
Ian

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
Many thanks for the info.
My Regards,
Norman.