Please help on 1796 HC sword marks

[fernando]

Hi Ian,

Manolo (aka Manoel, aka Celtan ) is right in observing that the intials on your sword would fit both Spanish and Portuguese marks.
In any case, i wonder why the marking, and only part of it, was done in roman numbers. I have been browsing this version and found no similar results.
Perhaps when you receive it, better pictures and naturally your own sight, will enlighten us a some more on the marking riddle.
I didn't manage to find any records of battles fought by the 2nd of Cavalry, which served dismounted in the garnison of Elvas, during the Peninsular war.
On the other hand, the troops from this regiment that were engaged in the Portuguese Legion did not use these swords, as the whole gear supplied was French, as you will observe in the attached picture.
But then again, those marks must be re-analized, when you get the sword.
Concerning the grip, if in fact the one that is there now is not a period replacement and doesn't contain any history in it, and assuming that you can get a correct modern replica, why not replace it ? ... says i, in my humble opinnion .
On the other hand, i am sorry to hear that this (as any) sword was trimmed in order to make it fit in a scabbard from a different origin; such are always dubious operations .

Fernando

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[Ian Knight]

Thanks very much for the information Fernando. I will update this thread when I have the sword in my hands and had a good look at the markings myself.

I have attached a photo of the markings which was sent to me. If you look at the abbreviation for 'number' ( i.e. No.) you can see that the top and bottom of the 'N' has small horizontal bars. These are similar to the bars on the Roman number II. So I suppose that it might be a styised number 11 and not the number 2. Or, it could be a letter?

I will make the sword grip myself from beech wood as I have done on two previous occasions.
Its quite a tricky job and very rewarding but it does necessitate taking the sword apart.
Ian

[celtan]

An M?

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by celtan

An M?

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop". Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop". Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it.
My Regards,
Norman.

Thanks Norman,
I have five P1796 LC swords at the moment.
I bought two of them because they looked a bit sad for themselves and were without grips. I gave them a light clean to remove active rust and regripped them. Very enjoyable.
They will be sold on soon to make way for my P1796 HC sword.
I know that you bought Fernando's P1796 HC sword. What is your area of interest?
I don't think that my P1796 HC sword will arrive this side of Christmas. I will update the thread when it does.
Ian

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

... I know that you bought Fernando's P1796 HC sword...

How in hell?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s .

Fernando

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[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s .

Fernando

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Thanks Fernando. I'll have a good look with a magnifying glass.
Ian

[Dmitry]

Ian, I don't know if you have this Osprey book, but it might come handy.
OTTO VON PIVKA - THE PORTUGUESE ARMY OF THE NAPOLEONIC WARS
A very decent concise summary of the Portuguese forces, uniforms, etc, especially considering that it is in English.

It's available for preview here - http://books.google.com/books?id=FdL...age&q=&f=false

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s .

Fernando

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Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

If you check the Osprey series you'll see _many_ illustrations showing Napoleonic Spanish Forces wielding 1796s. The possibility of this being a Spanish sword should not be dismissively discounted.

The amount of British supplies provided to Spanish Armies after 1808 was simply staggering, previous enemies or not. I can now understand why the British were so royally miffed when that equally Royal AH of Ferdinand VII went back to bed with the French, very soon after the Napoleonic Wars.

OTOH, I must admit that _while the French were allies_ and not invaders, they were good allies too. It is said that the invasion of Spain did cost old Nappy the war.

Confusing Times!

Best


M

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

[fernando]

Dear Ian,

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

I can read that Portuguese Regiments (cavalry or other) were designated by names until 1806, date in which they started to be treated with numbers.
But i find no clue of Regiments being numbered with Roman figures.
If this is indeed a Portuguese sword, i guess the owner practiced a personal method in its marking that (maybe) only he could decipher.
I am deeply sorry to be of no help .
Fernando