M1840 Saber Spine Mark

[Jim McDougall]

Nicely done guys! Its great to see more on this swords history unfolding, and I really like the teamwork
Glen, its nice to have you here posting again, especially on this topic, as your knowledge and background with American swords has long been well established. Thank you for bringing it in on this one.

Manolo, thanks again for sharing this....we really dont get to see much on the Confederate weapons, and regardless of what side anybody was on...the entire history of it all is monumentally moving. After growing up in essentially a Northern environment, and living the past decades essentially in the South from Tennessee to Texas, I honestly see a larger perspective. I think Sherman had it right, "..it is good that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it".

Thank you for the great Christmas wreath and greetings!!! and wishing you and yours wonderful holidays as well.

All the very best guys!
Jim

[celtan]

Hi Guys, interesting news,

Just got my digital copy of three books written about Norfolk, VA.
In one of them I found this tasty tidbit:


THE H I S T O R Y OF NORFOLK, VIRGINIA

A review of Important Events and Incidents which occurred from 1736 to 1877

BY H. W. BURTON, .

" HARRY SCRATCH” OF THE NORFOLK VIRGINIAN.

NORFOLK, VA.

Norfolk Virginian Job Print; 36 and 38 Roanoke Avenue., 1877

page 93

/"...the charge, about fifty yards from ihe ditch, Captain John W. Wallace, of Company C, Sixty-first Virginia Regiment, was stricken down with a broken thigh. He lay upon his back, refusing to allow his men to take him from the field till the battle was over, waving his hat and urging his men to " Go on; go forward ."/

So it seems that some documents refer to Captain Wallace as John W., yet others refer to him as John G., which makes my suspicion this is a matter of a W/G cursive handwriting misinterpretation very likely.


Now, which one would be the correct version?




Manuel

[Hotspur]

Good find,

Something else to consider is that the William mentioned, may well be the John W. Wallace of the blade. I have not spent more than superficial time with this but this William Wallace was (iirc) from the Carolinas (google notes of). It is and was no surprise to have folk going by their middle name and not their first (or Christian) name. My family was no different in the Americas of the 19th century and continues today with me often referred to as Alan (my middle name), just as my father Alan was more often referred to as Robert (his middle name). I have come across it even in musters of the American Civil War and company records differing from enlistment lists (the commander's notes sometimes using the middle names). In a sense, some of this also goes back to surname and descendants of the UK history with Mc and Mac.

I would (if me) pursue both Wallaces until better reckoning of the sword might be made.

Cheers and Happy Holidays

GC

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Guys, interesting news,

Just got my digital copy of three books written about Norfolk, VA.
In one of them I found this tasty tidbit:


THE H I S T O R Y OF NORFOLK, VIRGINIA

A review of Important Events and Incidents which occurred from 1736 to 1877

BY H. W. BURTON, .

" HARRY SCRATCH” OF THE NORFOLK VIRGINIAN.

NORFOLK, VA.

Norfolk Virginian Job Print; 36 and 38 Roanoke Avenue., 1877

page 93

/"...the charge, about fifty yards from ihe ditch, Captain John W. Wallace, of Company C, Sixty-first Virginia Regiment, was stricken down with a broken thigh. He lay upon his back, refusing to allow his men to take him from the field till the battle was over, waving his hat and urging his men to " Go on; go forward ."/

So it seems that some documents refer to Captain Wallace as John W., yet others refer to him as John G., which makes my suspicion this is a matter of a W/G cursive handwriting misinterpretation very likely.


Now, which one would be the correct version?




Manuel

[celtan]

Hi G.,

No, I don't think so. The other Captain's name was William C. Wallace, and he was a close friend of Col Stewart, there's no way he'd mistake one for the other in his accounts. They were both from Norfolk, and, as a matter of fact, from a place called (sic.) Wallaceton...(Wallacetown?).

...small wonder!

Best

M

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Good find,

Something else to consider is that the William mentioned, may well be the John W. Wallace of the blade. I have not spent more than superficial time with this but this William Wallace was (iirc) from the Carolinas (google notes of). It is and was no surprise to have folk going by their middle name and not their first (or Christian) name. My family was no different in the Americas of the 19th century and continues today with me often referred to as Alan (my middle name), just as my father Alan was more often referred to as Robert (his middle name). I have come across it even in musters of the American Civil War and company records differing from enlistment lists (the commander's notes sometimes using the middle names). In a sense, some of this also goes back to surname and descendants of the UK history with Mc and Mac.

I would (if me) pursue both Wallaces until better reckoning of the sword might be made.

Cheers and Happy Holidays

GC

[celtan]

Got more info from the " Wallace Company Records, 1783-1975".

Seems our friend's middle name was Gallaudette, and William C (Curtiss) Wallace (The KIA Captain of 61st Inf. Va Company A) was his brother. The G/W conundrum seems to arise from a mistake in Norfolk's documents. I suspect the sword was commissioned by the city.

They belonged to well known and prosperous family in Wallaceton / VA, owners of the "Wallace Company". Their plantation was named "Dover Farm" and their mansion grounds "Glencoe" John died at 71 yrs, of age and left numerous descendants. The company disappeared after WWII.

Captain John Wallace is also mentined in "Canoeing Sketches, by John Boyle O'Reilly": Canoeing in the Dismal Swamp, From Athletics and Manly Sport, Boston: Pilot Publishing Company, 1890, 350-452.

Other mentions to the Wallaces appear on the book "The Great Dismal: A Carolinian's Swamp Memoir" (UNC Press, 1990) by Bland Simpson.


Best!


M

[celtan]

Hi G and Jim,

I remember asking, but can't find the actual post, about captured swords and etching. Was it normal to have a captured sword etched with names etc... and presented as a trophy? I still have no idea of the maker of this sword.

Best

M

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Manolo,
In history there are of course instances of swords being captured and being presented as trophies, and the captured crusader swords which ended up in Alexandria, then Constantinople were engraved with Islamic inscriptions and held as trophies in these armouries.
The Russians were well known for using captured blades as awards for gallantry to thier officers, and these were often profusely etched or engraved.
In North America, I am not aware of this affectation being used with swords, although certainly swords were indeed captured at times. I recall research on a sword which belonged to Custer and was said to have been taken from a Confederate officer in combat in the Civil War. The sword had a huge blade with the 'Spanish motto' and was clearly a Mexican blade. I discovered later that the sword was actually 'given' to Custer by one of his officers who had taken the sword in battle, and knew Custer collected swords, so he gave to him out of respect.
Other swords were taken in battle from Confederates and many were swords that had been taken by them in turn in battle during the Mexican war.
None of these were ever afforded any additional engraving or salutations, simply used as is.

While the sword was never used as much in combat during the Civil War as it may be presumed, it did serve well in almost a symbolic or metaphoric sense.
The most profound example of this was at Appomattox when General Robert E. Lee surrendered to President Abraham Lincoln. Out of his deep respect for this brilliant commander, Lincoln refused to take his sword in the traditional gesture of surrender, and ordered that Confederate officers were to be allowed to keep thier sidearms in expanding that respect. It was one of the most deeply moving occurrences to me of this war as this tragic episode of American history ended.

I would however note that after the Civil War, and with the fluorishing of fraternal organizations, many militarily based, a great deal of regalia was produced. This might well have included swords that were either captured or used in significant events or by individuals preserving thier legacies. I think one of the instances of these kinds of uses were in Masonic lodges, where of course the Tylers sword was of key importance. Although the regalia outfitters produced these specifically, it does seem there were many cases were an authentically 'used' sword with historical provenance was donated for the purpose.

My thoughts,

All the best,
Jim