M1840 Saber Spine Mark

[celtan]

Hi G,

It doesn't look like someone has put a file to the seal, but more like honest use and wear, due to the scabbard's throat action on that area.

The sword is gorgeous, a confederate presentation sword of apparent german make, which I have been researching for years. Yet, that spine's hallmark still eludes me. The thing is that it "feels" maddenly familiar. Perhaps some stylized initials?

Merry Xmas to you all!

M

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Can you share a profile picture of the entire hilt? Any markings on the casting itself? I don't see anything but a smudged blur on the spine of the blade, so I guess it could read as anything.

So, that does indicate there may be markings on the spine from time to time. I have also seen blade spines marked with the somewhat ubuiquitous term of PROVED. all by itself. Why anyone would obliterate any mark aside from deception is something to consider. Offering an What If? presentation that some find fond of further speculation. I just see a smudge.

Cheers

GC

[Hotspur]

What determines this to be a confederate presentation? I am not familiar with the theme, nor have you mentioned much description of it in this thread. Etched yes, how would you better describe the blade decoration to a blind man (as I can't make much from those photos)? Is there some other provenance that goes with the blade?

As to the spine photos, I still just see a blur and actually little that resembles normal or regular wear to me. Again, what I see and I hope read to be objective, as I have no reason to declare it anything in particular. What stylized initials do you read in the marks? Again, all I see is a blurry smudged look. Could it be a WR that has been deliberately obscured or just worn down?

Cheers

GC

[celtan]

Hi Glenn,

I was just asking _about the spine's mark_. Since you seem to be interested in the rest of the sword, here are other pictures. I hope you like them.

Since you ask, her owner was the commander of 61st Va Inf. Company A at the Battle of The Crater/Petersburg/Cold Harbor .

BTW: If by any chance, you find info on the post-war whereabouts of John W/G Wallace (from VA's Norfolk county), I'd love to hear it. He was gravely wounded on the charge. Also, I have been trying to check the 61st Va Roster, as published by Benjamin Trask, unsuccessfully. Current copies run into the $200, and I'm just not _that_ interested in that unit, only what relates to Capt. Wallace. I guess I'll wait til' I find a copy at EB.

There's a chance that a relative of Wallace, also serving in the 61st but in Company C, died in the Confederate charge.

BTW, that "blur" is quite clear to me in that it represents the edges of some stylized letters, probably K, S or G. I simply can't correlate the remaining traces to W or R. And, if someone wanted those removed, it would have been extremely easy to do so, they lie very exposed on the spine. So much so, that even I could do it.

Best/TTFN

M

Originally Posted by Hotspur

What determines this to be a confederate presentation? I am not familiar with the theme, nor have you mentioned much description of it in this thread. Etched yes, how would you better describe the blade decoration to a blind man (as I can't make much from those photos)? Is there some other provenance that goes with the blade?

As to the spine photos, I still just see a blur and actually little that resembles normal or regular wear to me. Again, what I see and I hope read to be objective, as I have no reason to declare it anything in particular. What stylized initials do you read in the marks? Again, all I see is a blurry smudged look. Could it be a WR that has been deliberately obscured or just worn down?

Cheers

GC

[celtan]

More!

[celtan]

Even More!

[Jim McDougall]

Wow!! Manolo, that is incredibly impressive and I'm glad you showed us the rest of the sword. Obviously an extremely nice commemorative sword issued at some point later to either Captain Wallace or his survivors, and to the importance of that event.
I wouldn't spend a great deal of money on a book that esoteric simply to establish a single reference, especially these days with the computer etc. It was rough in the old days when we did it that way, ouch!

I would get hold of a reenactment group, who have thier historians for particular units constantly researching those who served in the units. Geneology groups are especially good as well, with Virginia being profoundly thorough. Often it is easier to obtain the capsulated unit histories of the regiments that are more focused and far less costly as far as I know.

My great great grandfather was in the 2nd US Sharpshooters in the Civil War, and I dropped a bundle to obtain a couple of books on this unit.....all I found was a single line where his name appeared. Interesting history, but none specific I could relate to him, and this was a key unit, one of only two known as Berdan's Sharpshooters.

Also I would contact historical societies near the location of that battle. If I recall correctly from that research long ago, my grandfather was there as well. When I lived in Nashville there was Civil War history everyplace!!! and I was often corrected that it was 'The War Between the States' , not the Civil War, and of course the motto, 'Lee surrendered, I didnt' everyplace
History lives passionately in many such places, and I'm sure such records should be reasonably accessible without such expensive books.

As impressive sabre Manolo, well worth the research to pursue.

All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Hi Jim!

'Lee surrendered, I didnt'

: )

I was in CAP in the 70s, and whenever we had an encampment, I had to be careful not to mix southern and northern cadets from rural areas in the same Flight. Amazingly, the war was ideologically still going on for them.

Puerto Rico has been an US territory for more than a century, and yet some locals are still fighting the SAW of 98'. If you visit Spain, you'll see how the Left and the Right are coming back to very same old Boxing Ring.

ca plus le change...

The sword was logically given after the event. What I wonder is, what happened to Wallace himself after the battle?. His femur was broken, that kinda' wound would either incapacitate him for active duty for at least a year, or require amputation. What happened to the poor guy afterward?

Also, the fallen Captain of Company A was named William Wallace. Brothers? Cousins? John had been with the 61st since its creation in 62, so it wouldn't surprise me if he brought a blood-relative to command Co. A. All were from Norfolk County, VA.

Best, and Merry Xmas to y'all!



M

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wow!! Manolo, that is incredibly impressive and I'm glad you showed us the rest of the sword. Obviously an extremely nice commemorative sword issued at some point later to either Captain Wallace or his survivors, and to the importance of that event.
I wouldn't spend a great deal of money on a book that esoteric simply to establish a single reference, especially these days with the computer etc. It was rough in the old days when we did it that way, ouch!

I would get hold of a reenactment group, who have thier historians for particular units constantly researching those who served in the units. Geneology groups are especially good as well, with Virginia being profoundly thorough. Often it is easier to obtain the capsulated unit histories of the regiments that are more focused and far less costly as far as I know.

My great great grandfather was in the 2nd US Sharpshooters in the Civil War, and I dropped a bundle to obtain a couple of books on this unit.....all I found was a single line where his name appeared. Interesting history, but none specific I could relate to him, and this was a key unit, one of only two known as Berdan's Sharpshooters.

Also I would contact historical societies near the location of that battle. If I recall correctly from that research long ago, my grandfather was there as well. When I lived in Nashville there was Civil War history everyplace!!! and I was often corrected that it was 'The War Between the States' , not the Civil War, and of course the motto, 'Lee surrendered, I didnt' everyplace
History lives passionately in many such places, and I'm sure such records should be reasonably accessible without such expensive books.

As impressive sabre Manolo, well worth the research to pursue.

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Thanks for more background on the sword. One other thin g I wonder about is the apparent cleaning of the oxidation from the ricasso up that is shown in this attachment. Something is odd to me about that trait but perhaps meaningless (except someone was scrubbing off rust at some point)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=52669&stc=1

Again, I have no reason to doubt you see other markings there, I just can't see them or reconcile what you see of them. You mention it to be quite like the French markings but it is pretty obviously not a French built sword.

I'll poke about regarding the character a bit, as I have some other leads I often peruse. Thanks a lot for the entire sword as you have been able to provide it. I somehow hate to get one the teeniest of information regarding an item without as much background as possible.

Cheers

GC