Dagger ID Needed

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

I meant to add that the are called tailor's thimbles, which mean they did not have a top, as tailor's would push the needle with the side of the thimble, using the knurling to help hold it as it pushed through material. The notches can be seen in the forth and sixth pictures down from the top. I have seen marks like this on the spine and ricasso of blades before but this is the first time that I have seen them on the grip itself.

Robert

I would suggest these thimbles also came from Chinese traders, maybe used when newer ones became available, most likely originally from Europe though.
I tentatively suggest this as the Chinese traded greatly in textiles and it seems more than possible given the knife styling.
I too would agree with the 1880+ dating though maybe 30 years earlier.

Gav

[Battara]

I have held off because I had to think about this piece. I agree that the hilt looks Filipino and what helps is the fact that it is made of carabao horn. It was in Luzon due to the fact that the tang goes through the hilt into the end.

I would agree that the blade is a Spanish bayonet.

The thimbles - would be used if made of silver - as Rick said - "frugal"

[Hotspur]

My guess for the blade and I concur with late 19th century and into the 20th century for origin of make up.

http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/fren1887iof.htm

Continental as well, my thinking but the styles easily travel and get absorbed in other cultures.

The T shape Gras bayonet blades are spine to edge, whereas the Epee blade linked is side to side, as is this dagger.

Cheers

GC

One viewer read my modern hafted poinard as a sai An 18th century blade on this one with quite modern parts, overall.

[Atlantia]

Date wise, the construction looks 19thC to me, possibly mid. Especially the thimbles.

[migueldiaz]

Dimasalang, where are you when we need you?!

Your knowledge on Katipunan-era daggers would be me most useful here sir.

[Dimasalang]

Sorry, been busy Xmas shopping. hehe

I reread the posts here and took a long hard look at this piece. I agree it is from the Philippines, as noted by others, the scabbard design and the handle(horn and shape) are just to similar to all the other pieces that come out of the Philippines. And I would definitely agree the blade was a former rifle bayonet. I know many late 19th century bayonets were 3 edged just as this. Curious to know which rifle bayonet this is...doesn't seem to be from a Spanish Rolling Block or Mauser of that time, but there were rifles from all over the world that made it to the Philippines.
From my observation and humble opinion, it looks to be from the Revolution/Phil-Am War era and not earlier then that. I say this because a piece like this would be illegal to make and sell when the Spanish were still in control of the islands...so I wouldn't say it was pre-Katipunan era. Unlike a bolo which can be excused as a working farm tool, this can not pass as a farm tool, it is a weapon. I wouldn't count this as being made after the 1st Republic era also, because a weapon like this would also be outlawed by the Americans...and the 3 edged bayonets weren't used after this time I believe, as well as Chinese blade smithing in the Luzon area. Bladed fighting weapons were being discreetly manufactured shortly after the Katipunan was established(1892)...and afterwards, open mass production began once the revolution started(1896) and the 1st Republic was established. The horn handle and shape do seem similar to southern Luzon design. The guard and the thimbles are another interesting part...the chinese shape and design stand out. This just turns on another light bulb in my head. Prior to the revolution, Aguinaldo befriended a Chinese named Jose Paua. Paua was born in China and migrated to the Philippines in the early 1890s. He would became one of Aguinaldos bestfriends(Aguinaldo also has Chinese blood), and he would later become an in-law of Aguinaldos. Paua's family trade was blacksmithing during the Spanish era, but was also said to have experience in manufacturing firearms in China(most particularly cannons). Once the war broke out, Aguinaldo turned to Paua for help in producing, not only firearms and cannons, but bladed weapons. For the most part, the Chinese community in all the provinces wanted nothing to do with any revolution or war. Paua was the only pure blooded Chinese to be a high ranking officer in Aguinaldos government...he would later became one of Aguinaldos Generals. Paua used his power and influenced many of the Chinese blacksmiths in Cavite to produce weapons for the Magdiwang and Aguinaldos Magdalo group. Paua was the Chinese connection for the revolution and the 1st Republic. And Cavite is in southern Luzon. I can see one of these Chinese blacksmiths turning a ordinary bayonet in to a dagger with a Chinese/Philippine influential design.
The Chinese in the Philippines were adamant about adding pieces of their culture in to work they were hired to do. An example of this is the enormous Paoay Catholic Church of Ilocos Norte built by the Spanish with the help of Filipinos and Chineses workers, the design is a European and Asian blend. I saw this church in person and wow is it awesome and a sight to behold. Well, thats my 2 centavos worth of jabbering.

[Robert]

Hello everyone. The dagger has arrived and I am really pleased with the overall condition and construction though it does have a couple of problems. The first and the least of my worries is the cracked carabao horn grip. Age cracks are usually expected in older grips made from horn and I would have been somewhat suspicious it it wasn't. The second is the small brass bead was missing from where the tang exits the pommel but that has been easily replaced. The BIG problem is somewhere down the line someone decided to clean the rust from the blade with a wire wheel That I will leave for later repair. The blade itself comes to a very deadly needle sharp point. The reverse side of the blade does have a face flute that extends from the very tip to the ricasso, which is about 1/2 an inch long. The scabbard is hand stitched and in decent shape though the frog has seen much better days.

Dimasalang, Thank you very much for the wonderful information that you have contributed to this post as it is greatly appreciated. I do have a couple of questions that I would like to ask. You said, "It looks to be from the Revolution/Phil-Am War era and not earlier than that. I say this because a piece like this would be illegal to make and sell when the Spanish were still in control of the islands." My question on this would be, seeing that this dagger was designed for one purpose and one purpose only do you think that there could have been people (criminal types or assassins) that could have carried and used a dagger like this without really caring if it was against the law or not to own, and if so do you think that this could date this a little earlier than the 1890's ? My second question is, would it be correct to assume that the the correct term for this style of dagger to be a Tres Cantos ?

Here are a few new pictures showing the dagger after the replacement of the brass bead on the end of the hilt and a little light cleaning and waxing. The brass is not as shiny as it looks in the pictures.
Again my thanks for all the help that has been offered by everyone.