Balinese Hilt Help Requested

tom hyle · 19th May 2005, 10:36 AM

OK, they all came up that time (I think; more anyway). Looks more like a rat than any other face to me. Definitely a mammal. The apelike crest of hair is indeed fairly typical of Hanuman. Hanuman is usually depicted with a shorter more Humanlike face, but there are certainly monkeys with long faces like this. Is it possible the wings are being worn, as a costume? Is there a legend where a rat/monkey/god disguises itself as an eagle or uses an eagle's wings or something? There's a harness around the whole shoulder area (except on the back, between the wings; for simplicity?) with shoulder armour? What are the two round protrusions just above the hands and below the base of the wings? It looks like those rows of lines (representing bindings?) go around both thigh and shin? A curious figure.
Clearly the Wicked Witch has been to Bali.

Rick · 19th May 2005, 01:58 PM

Hanuman did have the power of flight . If you check the illustration linked you can see the similarity in the hand/arm posture .
I'm going to vote for Hanuman in a rarely seen form . The erection may simply be the knot in his waist cloth as it is commonly shown in depictions of the Monkey God :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman

If you look at the Bali ukiran below the figure appears to be gripping his phallus but I don't believe that is the carver's intent in this instance . When depicted in Balinese ukirans the phallus is usually detailed and unmistakable .

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 02:22 PM

Yeah Tom, Oz's flying monkeys was really my first thought too.

The hanging Balinese bat sculpture i have is indeed this same type oflong snouted face.
Just a disclaimer, when i say etch i am not referring to a deep etch, just a bath in some fruit juice to help remove and rust and gunk. More a cleaning than an etch i suppose. But i guess the acids in the juice do etch the blade to some degree.

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

If you look at the Bali ukiran below the figure appears to be gripping his phallus but I don't believe that is the carver's intent in this instance . When depicted in Balinese ukirans the phallus is usually detailed and unmistakable .

Oh sure he is Rick. This is obviously a depiction of an early Balinese Rap singer grapping his crouch. The club is his microphone.

Rick · 19th May 2005, 02:48 PM

Must be Spring in Cincy eh ?

You shouldn't be talking about Bima that way , he's carrying a pretty big club .

Seriously though ; I have been searching for the Bat in Bali/Hindu mythology and have come up blank so far . We do know that Hanuman was capable of changing form .

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 03:59 PM

Oh yes! It's spring in Cincy aright!

Here's a link to Pura Goa Lawah, a sacred bat cave temple on Bai:
http://www.edwebproject.org/bali/gallery/goalawah.html

Rick · 19th May 2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Oh yes! It's spring in Cincy aright!

Here's a link to Pura Goa Lawah, a sacred bat cave temple on Bai:
http://www.edwebproject.org/bali/gallery/goalawah.html

Still Winter here .

Too bad there are no effigys present at the Bat cave Robin .

RobT · 21st May 2005, 04:03 AM

Thanks for all your responses. I am gratified that my first thread has engendered interest and am sure we will gain understanding as a result. To that purpose I will try to reply to your comments and questions thus far.
BluErf: The creature has what appear to be wings. Whether the diagonal striations on the wings are meant to depict feathers or are just decorative I can't say. I can say that my first overall impression was bat, not bird and judging by the responses to this thread I am not alone in that. The legs are definately human as tom hyle's reference to thighs and shins points out. The feet are mammal, not bird shaped with four claws showing.
VANDOO: Your maintenance tips are about as far as I intend to go for now. I'm pretty conversant with amber in both translucent and opaque forms and I'm sure the ukiran is neither. I might try a hot pin on the inside of the peksi hole. Thanks for the mendak offer, I may take you up on that when I know more about the piece. I am in complete agreement with your fruit bat observation and since some fruit bats are called flying foxes, I thought the ukiran might be an akso in flying form. (Provided such a creature exists in the folklore.)
nechesh: The tail reminded me of Hanuman also but the rest of the creature doesn't. All the images of Hanuman I can recall seeing give the general impression of benevelent strength. I don't get that feeling of good from my hulu. Strength yes, good maybe sometimes yes, maybe sometimes no. I have to check out the flying monkeys from Oz. (Strangely enough my friend who has the movie, was talking about them in a different context just the other day.) In regards to Hanuman, it should be noted that the flying monkeys are the servants of the Wicked Witch and are most likely styled to look the part. I would be surprised to see a similar aspect on a heroic character. If the hulu is made of a natural material, it's nothing I'm familiar with as a collector of blades from Africa, the middle and far east, and eastern Europe. I have taken the hulu off but have seen nothing that would give me a clue as to its makeup. Although I have some realgar, blade etching will wait until I have perfected my technique on a few blades of lesser quality and condition. Thanks for the link to the Pura Goa Lawak cave. I had heard about the the cave and the ceremonies surrounding it from an Indonesian shopkeeper in Montreal but he couldn't recall the name of the cave.
tom hyle: Sorry the pictures aren't coming up for you. They're all there when I call up the thread. As you and others have mentioned, the fruit bat resemblance is strong. Perhaps in Indonesia, with its large number of fruit bats, it's not an atypical representation. I don't think the hulu is stone. It's almost as light as balsa wood. The dark brown could indeed have been an applied finish or an applied base coat for a finish. Whether it was deliberately removed or just wore off I can't say. As I said in my reply to nechesh, I just can't see this creature as Hanuman, for me it radiates too much malevelence. You said it yourself; "the Wicked Witch has been to Bali". The two round protrusions above the hands are the curled ends of locks of hair flanking the face. Those rows of lines around thigh and shin carry the same striations as on the bottom of the wings. I had assumed that they were continuations of the wings.
Rick: As you can see from my replys to nechesh and tom hyle, I have difficulty with the Hanuman idea. I agree with you in that all the human form phalli on bali hulu that I have seen are unmistakable as such. What about the depiction of a bat or dog member? The penis on my hulu looks appropriate for a dog or bat to me. As you say, perhaps what appears to be a phallus is in reality a waist cloth knot but aside from the necklace, I can't see any evidence of clothing on the creature and in a larger sense I get the feeling that this creature has no need for garments that preserve modesty.
Sincerely,
RobT

19th May 2005, 01:58 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Hanuman did have the power of flight . If you check the illustration linked you can see the similarity in the hand/arm posture . I'm going to vote for Hanuman in a rarely seen form . The erection may simply be the knot in his waist cloth as it is commonly shown in depictions of the Monkey God : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman If you look at the Bali ukiran below the figure appears to be gripping his phallus but I don't believe that is the carver's intent in this instance . When depicted in Balinese ukirans the phallus is usually detailed and unmistakable . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 19th May 2005 at 02:12 PM.

19th May 2005, 02:48 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Sigh ........ Must be Spring in Cincy eh ? You shouldn't be talking about Bima that way , he's carrying a pretty big club . Seriously though ; I have been searching for the Bat in Bali/Hindu mythology and have come up blank so far . We do know that Hanuman was capable of changing form .

21st May 2005, 04:03 AM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 551	responses Thanks for all your responses. I am gratified that my first thread has engendered interest and am sure we will gain understanding as a result. To that purpose I will try to reply to your comments and questions thus far. BluErf: The creature has what appear to be wings. Whether the diagonal striations on the wings are meant to depict feathers or are just decorative I can't say. I can say that my first overall impression was bat, not bird and judging by the responses to this thread I am not alone in that. The legs are definately human as tom hyle's reference to thighs and shins points out. The feet are mammal, not bird shaped with four claws showing. VANDOO: Your maintenance tips are about as far as I intend to go for now. I'm pretty conversant with amber in both translucent and opaque forms and I'm sure the ukiran is neither. I might try a hot pin on the inside of the peksi hole. Thanks for the mendak offer, I may take you up on that when I know more about the piece. I am in complete agreement with your fruit bat observation and since some fruit bats are called flying foxes, I thought the ukiran might be an akso in flying form. (Provided such a creature exists in the folklore.) nechesh: The tail reminded me of Hanuman also but the rest of the creature doesn't. All the images of Hanuman I can recall seeing give the general impression of benevelent strength. I don't get that feeling of good from my hulu. Strength yes, good maybe sometimes yes, maybe sometimes no. I have to check out the flying monkeys from Oz. (Strangely enough my friend who has the movie, was talking about them in a different context just the other day.) In regards to Hanuman, it should be noted that the flying monkeys are the servants of the Wicked Witch and are most likely styled to look the part. I would be surprised to see a similar aspect on a heroic character. If the hulu is made of a natural material, it's nothing I'm familiar with as a collector of blades from Africa, the middle and far east, and eastern Europe. I have taken the hulu off but have seen nothing that would give me a clue as to its makeup. Although I have some realgar, blade etching will wait until I have perfected my technique on a few blades of lesser quality and condition. Thanks for the link to the Pura Goa Lawak cave. I had heard about the the cave and the ceremonies surrounding it from an Indonesian shopkeeper in Montreal but he couldn't recall the name of the cave. tom hyle: Sorry the pictures aren't coming up for you. They're all there when I call up the thread. As you and others have mentioned, the fruit bat resemblance is strong. Perhaps in Indonesia, with its large number of fruit bats, it's not an atypical representation. I don't think the hulu is stone. It's almost as light as balsa wood. The dark brown could indeed have been an applied finish or an applied base coat for a finish. Whether it was deliberately removed or just wore off I can't say. As I said in my reply to nechesh, I just can't see this creature as Hanuman, for me it radiates too much malevelence. You said it yourself; "the Wicked Witch has been to Bali". The two round protrusions above the hands are the curled ends of locks of hair flanking the face. Those rows of lines around thigh and shin carry the same striations as on the bottom of the wings. I had assumed that they were continuations of the wings. Rick: As you can see from my replys to nechesh and tom hyle, I have difficulty with the Hanuman idea. I agree with you in that all the human form phalli on bali hulu that I have seen are unmistakable as such. What about the depiction of a bat or dog member? The penis on my hulu looks appropriate for a dog or bat to me. As you say, perhaps what appears to be a phallus is in reality a waist cloth knot but aside from the necklace, I can't see any evidence of clothing on the creature and in a larger sense I get the feeling that this creature has no need for garments that preserve modesty. Sincerely, RobT

19th May 2005, 10:36 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	OK, they all came up that time (I think; more anyway). Looks more like a rat than any other face to me. Definitely a mammal. The apelike crest of hair is indeed fairly typical of Hanuman. Hanuman is usually depicted with a shorter more Humanlike face, but there are certainly monkeys with long faces like this. Is it possible the wings are being worn, as a costume? Is there a legend where a rat/monkey/god disguises itself as an eagle or uses an eagle's wings or something? There's a harness around the whole shoulder area (except on the back, between the wings; for simplicity?) with shoulder armour? What are the two round protrusions just above the hands and below the base of the wings? It looks like those rows of lines (representing bindings?) go around both thigh and shin? A curious figure. Clearly the Wicked Witch has been to Bali.

19th May 2005, 02:22 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yeah Tom, Oz's flying monkeys was really my first thought too. The hanging Balinese bat sculpture i have is indeed this same type oflong snouted face. Just a disclaimer, when i say etch i am not referring to a deep etch, just a bath in some fruit juice to help remove and rust and gunk. More a cleaning than an etch i suppose. But i guess the acids in the juice do etch the blade to some degree.

19th May 2005, 03:59 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Oh yes! It's spring in Cincy aright! Here's a link to Pura Goa Lawah, a sacred bat cave temple on Bai: http://www.edwebproject.org/bali/gallery/goalawah.html