Ethics and Policies

Rick · 30th November 2009, 07:11 PM

I understand your concerns Kai Wee; the last thing we want to do is kill this place .

Input please guys.

There are changes coming to Swap as well .

After the changes are in place if you have a problem you'll have to talk to a Moderator .

This thread is it for input .

Rick

A. G. Maisey · 30th November 2009, 09:42 PM

I agree completely Kai Wee, however, after the present upcoming changes have been made, we're back to where we were before this discussion was opened up:- Forum policies are a matter for management, and no discussion will be entered into in public.

This discussion is unique, in that we have the opportunity to give our views to management and those views will be taken into consideration in the formulation of any new policies.

As is the case in any type of organisation, policy must be under continual review, and must be reframed as the environment changes, and again, as in any organisation, this is one of the duties of management.

Failure to maintain adequate policy can result in an orgainsation losing its viability. That is what our current discussion is about:- the maintenance of the relevance and viability of our facility for open discussion of the keris --- and management is listening to us.

Lets grab the opportunity with both hands and make the most of it.

Rick · 3rd December 2009, 01:19 AM

What ?
No more input, suggestions ???
If you haven't already spoken please do .

CourseEight · 3rd December 2009, 01:37 AM

Well, for my part, I use the swap section only occassionally and I sell some things on ebay, but I never ever post items I have any thought that I would sell at a later date. So I'm okay with the 150-posts-to-use-swap idea, the 3-month-hold on pieces idea, and the appropriate punishments for (non-innocent) abuses.

There seems to be some issue involving some people wanting the ability to ID things for resale, which I can understand. However, I think a public seperate forum might be overkill. Why not just have a Sticky with a list of members who are willing to receive inquires of this kind via PM? Moderators can add or remove members from the list at their request, and members can simply include their user names and area of specality. I know that, personally, as a relatively less experienced collector, I am aware of those members who know a great deal more than I do, but I am tentative to "bother" them with banal questions. Such a sticky might serve as an "open invitation" to younger members, and the members receiving these questions might even encourage them to post interesting pieces to the public forum. Of course, if it is an ID for resale, then that wouldn't be alllowed.

My $0.02

--Radleigh

Andrew · 3rd December 2009, 05:00 AM

Interesting thread, gentlemen. It's caused me to actually stop contemplating my navel and think about something other than my day job for the first time in many moons.

RSWORD · 3rd December 2009, 12:49 PM

This has been a most interesting thread and like Andrew states, it helps one take pause and give thought to what is being discussed. The thread title is Ethics and Policies. Two seperate things. There are many things in life that are legal but may not be ethical. Ethics are not necessarily written in stone. It is a personal code. What may be ethical to you and I may not be to someone else. It is all in how you are brought up, your culture and probably a few other things. I don't think you can create new rules and policies to try and manage people's ethics. In my opinion, one has to use common sense to do so. For example, eBay has some rules and policies to govern its "membership". Most is to cover legalities. Some are a bit more political in nature. But the number one rule is to use common sense when you buy from there. Caveat Emptor. I think the same can be applied to a forum such as this. What makes this a great forum in my opinion? Up until this point, it has been pretty much a free and open forum where collectors AND non-collectors can gather together to share knowledge. That seems to be the spirit of the forum. Knowledge is indeed a resource. There is a lot of collective experience within this forum. That experience has been gained over a lot of years and each user should utilize that experience how they see fit. Many members enjoy sharing their knowledge. Other members prefer to guard their knowledge carefully and only share it selectively. Both are fine. It is a personal choice. We must remember that you should never manage to the exception. It gets too complicated if you do that. The majority of posts are legitimate without further incidence. In the few times someone has taken knowledge from here and used it unscrupiously it is indeed unfortunate. I think a thread like this sheds light on the subject and helps remind us all to be careful with our resource, knowledge. Make this thread a sticky. But again, I suggest common sense can prevail here. If you feel suspicious or uncertain about the intentions of a poster, either don't share knowledge on the item or ask them what their intention is. If they are not forthright with their response then it is a good indication they may be up to no good and simply don't respond. We all know who the "regulars" are and those members have gained our confidence that if they have an item they are inquiring about we feel more free to share our knowledge and experience than with a new member. Hey, a small price for membership. We also have to remember we were all first time members at some point. We either jumped in by contributing to posts, or sharing pieces from our collections, or asking questions about certain items. I am personally quite thankful that I was welcomed in, that knowledge was shared and here 8 or 9 years later am still enjoying what I consider one of the best forums out there. Gentleman, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Let's just all use a little common sense and exercise a bit of Caveat Emptor when we have a post we just don't sense is legit.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd December 2009, 10:00 PM

Thank you RSWORD for your thoughtful post.

You are, of course, correct, in that an individual may have his own standards for ethical behaviour, however, the meaning of the word "ethics" is much broader than a set of personal rules for personal conduct.

It is generally accepted that there are three schools of ethics:- Aristotlian, then the school grounded in the philosophies of Kant, and lastly, utilitarianism. For our purposes here, we can probably direct our focus to the principles of the school of utilitarianism, which hold that the guiding principle of conduct should be that which results in the greatest happiness or benefit for the greatest number of people.

Far from the concept of "ethics" being limited to personal standards, we will find that most, if not all professions have standards of ethics, the infringement of which can result in censure of a member of the profession by the profession itself, or can result in legal action being taken against that person who has acted in an unethical way.

Ethics are real, widely spread throughout our communities, and govern the behaviour of the members of those communities.

However, the standards which various codes of ethics espouse can vary from one community to another, and in that sense, ethics are not graven in stone, except insofar as each individual community is concerned:- that which is held to be unethical for one group of people may not be held to be unethical in a different community.

In this present discussion of policies and ethics, we are discussing the ethics which we as a group would like to see apply within the community of the Keris Warung Kopi, the keris discussion sub-forum of the Ethnographic Arms & Armour Forum.

When the necessary decisions have been taken in respect of what is to be considered ethical behaviour, and what is considered not to be ethical behaviour, then the policies to govern that behaviour will be formulated and put in place.

This is the way in which those two separate concepts of "ethics", and "policies" are related one unto the other.

We could think of this exercise in this way:- if this current discussion and the decisions and actions flowing from it were occurring in the corporate world, what we would be looking at would be an exercise in corporate governance. As I am sure we all understand, proper corporate governance is essential for the continued health of any organisation.

And that is exactly what we are attempting to ensure here:- the continued health of our little keris discussion group.

It is regretable that it has become necessary to raise this matter at all, however, if we look at the history of keris discussion in public forums, it will become clear that for some unfathomable reason the things that occur which are related to keris are not necessarily echoed in the discussions and occurrences which take place in discussion of other weapon types.

The keris presents a special case, and that was the base reason that keris discussion was hived off into a separate forum.

Those of us who regularly contribute to and monitor discussion taking place within the Keris Warung Kopi have become aware that behaviour of some of our contributors might be viewed as tending towards that which could be considered unethical.

The present discussion is an attempt to gauge the opinions of regular contributors to this sub-forum in respect of what standards of ethical behaviour should govern activity within the sub-forum. Hopefully, when this exercise has run its course, management of this site will implement policies which will result in an acceptable and uniform code of ethics being followed by members of the Keris Warung Kopi, which will result in the greatest happiness and benefit for the greatest number of members of this group of people.

In other words, the practical application of the ethical philosophy of utilitarianism.

30th November 2009, 07:11 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I understand your concerns Kai Wee; the last thing we want to do is kill this place . Input please guys. There are changes coming to Swap as well . After the changes are in place if you have a problem you'll have to talk to a Moderator . This thread is it for input . Rick Last edited by Rick; 30th November 2009 at 07:22 PM.

30th November 2009, 09:42 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I agree completely Kai Wee, however, after the present upcoming changes have been made, we're back to where we were before this discussion was opened up:- Forum policies are a matter for management, and no discussion will be entered into in public. This discussion is unique, in that we have the opportunity to give our views to management and those views will be taken into consideration in the formulation of any new policies. As is the case in any type of organisation, policy must be under continual review, and must be reframed as the environment changes, and again, as in any organisation, this is one of the duties of management. Failure to maintain adequate policy can result in an orgainsation losing its viability. That is what our current discussion is about:- the maintenance of the relevance and viability of our facility for open discussion of the keris --- and management is listening to us. Lets grab the opportunity with both hands and make the most of it.

3rd December 2009, 01:19 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	What ? No more input, suggestions ??? If you haven't already spoken please do .

3rd December 2009, 01:37 AM	#4
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Well, for my part, I use the swap section only occassionally and I sell some things on ebay, but I never ever post items I have any thought that I would sell at a later date. So I'm okay with the 150-posts-to-use-swap idea, the 3-month-hold on pieces idea, and the appropriate punishments for (non-innocent) abuses. There seems to be some issue involving some people wanting the ability to ID things for resale, which I can understand. However, I think a public seperate forum might be overkill. Why not just have a Sticky with a list of members who are willing to receive inquires of this kind via PM? Moderators can add or remove members from the list at their request, and members can simply include their user names and area of specality. I know that, personally, as a relatively less experienced collector, I am aware of those members who know a great deal more than I do, but I am tentative to "bother" them with banal questions. Such a sticky might serve as an "open invitation" to younger members, and the members receiving these questions might even encourage them to post interesting pieces to the public forum. Of course, if it is an ID for resale, then that wouldn't be alllowed. My $0.02 --Radleigh

3rd December 2009, 05:00 AM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Interesting thread, gentlemen. It's caused me to actually stop contemplating my navel and think about something other than my day job for the first time in many moons.

3rd December 2009, 12:49 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	This has been a most interesting thread and like Andrew states, it helps one take pause and give thought to what is being discussed. The thread title is Ethics and Policies. Two seperate things. There are many things in life that are legal but may not be ethical. Ethics are not necessarily written in stone. It is a personal code. What may be ethical to you and I may not be to someone else. It is all in how you are brought up, your culture and probably a few other things. I don't think you can create new rules and policies to try and manage people's ethics. In my opinion, one has to use common sense to do so. For example, eBay has some rules and policies to govern its "membership". Most is to cover legalities. Some are a bit more political in nature. But the number one rule is to use common sense when you buy from there. Caveat Emptor. I think the same can be applied to a forum such as this. What makes this a great forum in my opinion? Up until this point, it has been pretty much a free and open forum where collectors AND non-collectors can gather together to share knowledge. That seems to be the spirit of the forum. Knowledge is indeed a resource. There is a lot of collective experience within this forum. That experience has been gained over a lot of years and each user should utilize that experience how they see fit. Many members enjoy sharing their knowledge. Other members prefer to guard their knowledge carefully and only share it selectively. Both are fine. It is a personal choice. We must remember that you should never manage to the exception. It gets too complicated if you do that. The majority of posts are legitimate without further incidence. In the few times someone has taken knowledge from here and used it unscrupiously it is indeed unfortunate. I think a thread like this sheds light on the subject and helps remind us all to be careful with our resource, knowledge. Make this thread a sticky. But again, I suggest common sense can prevail here. If you feel suspicious or uncertain about the intentions of a poster, either don't share knowledge on the item or ask them what their intention is. If they are not forthright with their response then it is a good indication they may be up to no good and simply don't respond. We all know who the "regulars" are and those members have gained our confidence that if they have an item they are inquiring about we feel more free to share our knowledge and experience than with a new member. Hey, a small price for membership. We also have to remember we were all first time members at some point. We either jumped in by contributing to posts, or sharing pieces from our collections, or asking questions about certain items. I am personally quite thankful that I was welcomed in, that knowledge was shared and here 8 or 9 years later am still enjoying what I consider one of the best forums out there. Gentleman, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Let's just all use a little common sense and exercise a bit of Caveat Emptor when we have a post we just don't sense is legit.

3rd December 2009, 10:00 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thank you RSWORD for your thoughtful post. You are, of course, correct, in that an individual may have his own standards for ethical behaviour, however, the meaning of the word "ethics" is much broader than a set of personal rules for personal conduct. It is generally accepted that there are three schools of ethics:- Aristotlian, then the school grounded in the philosophies of Kant, and lastly, utilitarianism. For our purposes here, we can probably direct our focus to the principles of the school of utilitarianism, which hold that the guiding principle of conduct should be that which results in the greatest happiness or benefit for the greatest number of people. Far from the concept of "ethics" being limited to personal standards, we will find that most, if not all professions have standards of ethics, the infringement of which can result in censure of a member of the profession by the profession itself, or can result in legal action being taken against that person who has acted in an unethical way. Ethics are real, widely spread throughout our communities, and govern the behaviour of the members of those communities. However, the standards which various codes of ethics espouse can vary from one community to another, and in that sense, ethics are not graven in stone, except insofar as each individual community is concerned:- that which is held to be unethical for one group of people may not be held to be unethical in a different community. In this present discussion of policies and ethics, we are discussing the ethics which we as a group would like to see apply within the community of the Keris Warung Kopi, the keris discussion sub-forum of the Ethnographic Arms & Armour Forum. When the necessary decisions have been taken in respect of what is to be considered ethical behaviour, and what is considered not to be ethical behaviour, then the policies to govern that behaviour will be formulated and put in place. This is the way in which those two separate concepts of "ethics", and "policies" are related one unto the other. We could think of this exercise in this way:- if this current discussion and the decisions and actions flowing from it were occurring in the corporate world, what we would be looking at would be an exercise in corporate governance. As I am sure we all understand, proper corporate governance is essential for the continued health of any organisation. And that is exactly what we are attempting to ensure here:- the continued health of our little keris discussion group. It is regretable that it has become necessary to raise this matter at all, however, if we look at the history of keris discussion in public forums, it will become clear that for some unfathomable reason the things that occur which are related to keris are not necessarily echoed in the discussions and occurrences which take place in discussion of other weapon types. The keris presents a special case, and that was the base reason that keris discussion was hived off into a separate forum. Those of us who regularly contribute to and monitor discussion taking place within the Keris Warung Kopi have become aware that behaviour of some of our contributors might be viewed as tending towards that which could be considered unethical. The present discussion is an attempt to gauge the opinions of regular contributors to this sub-forum in respect of what standards of ethical behaviour should govern activity within the sub-forum. Hopefully, when this exercise has run its course, management of this site will implement policies which will result in an acceptable and uniform code of ethics being followed by members of the Keris Warung Kopi, which will result in the greatest happiness and benefit for the greatest number of members of this group of people. In other words, the practical application of the ethical philosophy of utilitarianism.