FRINGIA

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2009, 05:12 AM

Now theres another good suggestion Ariel!
The Franks were of course the key bladesmiths in early times, the ancestors of the Solingen smiths, so perhaps an interesting avenue for research.
I had not thought of that possibility either.......and I have seen the FRANCIA variation.
Lets check further.

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 26th November 2009, 12:05 PM

http://1911encyclopedia.org/Feringhi
http://baheyeldin.com/linguistics/th...ic-origin.html
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/thai/language/section-5.html
http://www.thehindu.com/lr/2007/04/0...0100250600.htm

fernando · 26th November 2009, 03:24 PM

Hi Jim,
Greetings from Portugal

.
So we were called Frangues, Franguis, Fringuins, Fringis, Firinghee; there were even places in Madras, formerly inhabited by Portuguese, called Fringe Burane and Feringhi or Frangula Dibba ...
But i found no evident link between those and the discussed (mark on blades) Fringia

.
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2009, 02:54 AM

So as is so often the case, it is transliteration and loaned words that seems to be at the root of this word and its variations.

Francia/frangia/fringia/ferangi.....essentially associated with quality of good steel, as with the early Frankish blades, therefore applied accordingly on trade blades.

No direct or apparant links between the words, but certainly compelling and plausible associations.
You guys are good !!!!

All the best,
Jim

Samik · 27th November 2009, 06:59 PM

Interesting discussion gentlemen,

The "Frankish" connection seems very intriguing to say the least. I have searched a bit around Slovak sources and found a passage in an on-line article that somewhat reinforces the theory http://korzar.sme.sk/c/4534059/muzejna-abeceda.html

To paraphrase Jozef Duchoň, an employee of Eastern Slovak Museum , " the origins of the term FRINGIA dwells somewhere in the times of the crusades, during which every Christian warrior was reffered to as "Franží" (Franji?), which was a corruption of the word Frank. Naturally the weapon of a Franží was thus called a "Franžíja" (Franjia?). This Arabic term was later on borrowed by the Turks, that succedded in subduing Balkans as well as the majority of the former Kingdom of Hungary. Thus the oriental name for a weapon of european origin came into use in the central europe. The term originaly meant a slightly curved combat saber , that sported a wide blade as well as a pronounced yelmen. The weapon was in use from 17th till 19th century, especially during the anti-habsurg uprisings."

Excuse the somewhat ad hoc translation. Also , I would take the statement with a pinch of salt, as curators (as well as museum employees) tend to sometimes amplify and even invent ridiculous theories in order to catch attention. Theoreticaly speaking though (i.e. when we would take this theory as valid), it doesnt sound that far feched. On the basis of the aforesaid theory , I would assume that the sabres manufactured in the territory of Ottomans were marked with FRINGIA letters , for the purpouse of being shiped to "FRINGIA" , i.e. Christian lands (non-ottoman europe , particulalry Poland and what was left of Christian Hungary+later liberated Hungary), but than again its speculation from my part.

All the best,
Samuel

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2009, 08:22 PM

Beautifully said Samuel !
In material discussing the exporting acumen of Solingen with thier well known blades, it is supposed that certain terms, phrases, markings and spurious adaptions of famed names were applied to appeal to certain markets.
Most well known instance was probably that of ANDREA FERARA which was applied consistantly to blades destined for Scotland, although other names also occurred. The SAHAGUN name occurs on blades, but mostly seems to have focused on Continental swords.

Therefore FRINGIA/FRANCIA and variations deriving from the medieval references to Franks and thier blades does not seem unreasonable. The Frankish blades export is well known through the studies on ULFBERT and related names on many of those blades, whose reputation easily paralleled and often even exceeded the blades of Toledo.

It seems perplexing that earlier writers on arms never saw fit to look into the occurrence of this term on blades further, and in an excellent example of your note on fantastic theories.....the one recounted by Wagner using the contrived acronym ("Cut and Thrust Weapons" p.348-9) serves well

Its great to get a clearer picture of what this term inscribed on blades realistically stands for, and truly gives a broader picture of the importance and complexity of trade blade systems through time.

Thanks very much for the excellent input!!!

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 28th November 2009, 09:13 PM

Great discussion everyone.

Another point to throw in - The French also made their first expeditions to India in the mid-16th and early-17th centuries. While mostly localized on the Malabar coast, they did have connections to the rest of India. Aurangzeb had a French doctor, Francois Bernier. French presence could very well have given rise to the Fringia term in somewhat more recent memory than the crusades

.

Emanuel

26th November 2009, 05:12 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,288	Now theres another good suggestion Ariel! The Franks were of course the key bladesmiths in early times, the ancestors of the Solingen smiths, so perhaps an interesting avenue for research. I had not thought of that possibility either.......and I have seen the FRANCIA variation. Lets check further. All the best, Jim

26th November 2009, 12:05 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	http://1911encyclopedia.org/Feringhi http://baheyeldin.com/linguistics/th...ic-origin.html http://www.faqs.org/faqs/thai/language/section-5.html http://www.thehindu.com/lr/2007/04/0...0100250600.htm

26th November 2009, 03:24 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim, Greetings from Portugal . So we were called Frangues, Franguis, Fringuins, Fringis, Firinghee; there were even places in Madras, formerly inhabited by Portuguese, called Fringe Burane and Feringhi or Frangula Dibba ... But i found no evident link between those and the discussed (mark on blades) Fringia . Fernando

27th November 2009, 02:54 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,288	So as is so often the case, it is transliteration and loaned words that seems to be at the root of this word and its variations. Francia/frangia/fringia/ferangi.....essentially associated with quality of good steel, as with the early Frankish blades, therefore applied accordingly on trade blades. No direct or apparant links between the words, but certainly compelling and plausible associations. You guys are good !!!! All the best, Jim

27th November 2009, 06:59 PM	#5
Samik Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovakia Posts: 48	Interesting discussion gentlemen, The "Frankish" connection seems very intriguing to say the least. I have searched a bit around Slovak sources and found a passage in an on-line article that somewhat reinforces the theory http://korzar.sme.sk/c/4534059/muzejna-abeceda.html To paraphrase Jozef Duchoň, an employee of Eastern Slovak Museum , " the origins of the term FRINGIA dwells somewhere in the times of the crusades, during which every Christian warrior was reffered to as "Franží" (Franji?), which was a corruption of the word Frank. Naturally the weapon of a Franží was thus called a "Franžíja" (Franjia?). This Arabic term was later on borrowed by the Turks, that succedded in subduing Balkans as well as the majority of the former Kingdom of Hungary. Thus the oriental name for a weapon of european origin came into use in the central europe. The term originaly meant a slightly curved combat saber , that sported a wide blade as well as a pronounced yelmen. The weapon was in use from 17th till 19th century, especially during the anti-habsurg uprisings." Excuse the somewhat ad hoc translation. Also , I would take the statement with a pinch of salt, as curators (as well as museum employees) tend to sometimes amplify and even invent ridiculous theories in order to catch attention. Theoreticaly speaking though (i.e. when we would take this theory as valid), it doesnt sound that far feched. On the basis of the aforesaid theory , I would assume that the sabres manufactured in the territory of Ottomans were marked with FRINGIA letters , for the purpouse of being shiped to "FRINGIA" , i.e. Christian lands (non-ottoman europe , particulalry Poland and what was left of Christian Hungary+later liberated Hungary), but than again its speculation from my part. All the best, Samuel

27th November 2009, 08:22 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,288	Beautifully said Samuel ! In material discussing the exporting acumen of Solingen with thier well known blades, it is supposed that certain terms, phrases, markings and spurious adaptions of famed names were applied to appeal to certain markets. Most well known instance was probably that of ANDREA FERARA which was applied consistantly to blades destined for Scotland, although other names also occurred. The SAHAGUN name occurs on blades, but mostly seems to have focused on Continental swords. Therefore FRINGIA/FRANCIA and variations deriving from the medieval references to Franks and thier blades does not seem unreasonable. The Frankish blades export is well known through the studies on ULFBERT and related names on many of those blades, whose reputation easily paralleled and often even exceeded the blades of Toledo. It seems perplexing that earlier writers on arms never saw fit to look into the occurrence of this term on blades further, and in an excellent example of your note on fantastic theories.....the one recounted by Wagner using the contrived acronym ("Cut and Thrust Weapons" p.348-9) serves well Its great to get a clearer picture of what this term inscribed on blades realistically stands for, and truly gives a broader picture of the importance and complexity of trade blade systems through time. Thanks very much for the excellent input!!! All the best, Jim

28th November 2009, 09:13 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Great discussion everyone. Another point to throw in - The French also made their first expeditions to India in the mid-16th and early-17th centuries. While mostly localized on the Malabar coast, they did have connections to the rest of India. Aurangzeb had a French doctor, Francois Bernier. French presence could very well have given rise to the Fringia term in somewhat more recent memory than the crusades . Emanuel