Ethics and Policies

A. G. Maisey · 24th November 2009, 09:53 PM

There has been some good, solid input to this discussion.

Its great to see such a reaction on a topic which affects us all.

I endorse completely Rick's and David's declared intention to keep things simple.

I can understand David's stance that what happens outside the bounds of this site are not the concern of the people who regulate activity on this site. In fact, this was my own attitude at the outset of this discussion, however I am no longer certain that this attitude is the desireable one. It is certainly the most simple attitude to adopt, but I do have a problem with covert dealers extracting information to use in a sales pitch in another place.

Let me state up front that this would make not the slightest difference to me, because I do not buy in the same places that collectors buy. I have only ever bought two keris from Ebay , and both were keris that I had previously sold. I have never bought from the Swap Forum.

However, if a covert dealer extracts information by use of this Forum to assist his sales pitch, and thus the price realised, of an item he wishes to sell, he is in fact using the information supplied by collectors against those collectors.

I consider this to be unethical behaviour.

Ward has already pointed this out and said that it is the reason he no longer posts comment very often.

Think about this:-

all knowledge costs money and time to acquire

if a collector passes that knowledge on to somebody he regards as a fellow collector, he is giving that fellow collector a gift of his time, money, indeed of his life

if he passes the knowledge to a dealer who has posed as a collector in order to gain the knowledge, and who then uses that knowledge to increase the price of something he wishes to sell, then in my view, the dealer has stolen the knowledge from the collector; he has obtained the knowledge by deception.

in short:- the dealer has acted in an unethical fashion.

I believe that this Forum should attempt to assist its members by a policy of identifying unethical behaviour by dealers. I am not suggesting for one moment that such dealers should be identified openly. Nobody wants potential issues for litigation. But I am suggesting that unethical dealers should be denied the fellowship of this Forum. Keep them out.

Now the question is this:-

how do we identify a dealer?

to my mind the answer is simple:-

we ask

The relevant question could take a bit of thought to frame in an adequate fashion, but it could be done.

If a member states that he is not a dealer, and then demonstrates dealer-like behaviour he should be asked to explain, and if the explanation is inadequate, action should be taken against him.

Where a known dealer has acted in an unethical fashion that dealer should be asked to explain and if the explanation is unsatisfactory then action should taken against him.

All of this may sound complicated and possibly draconian, however in action it need not be. I believe that with thought, a simple administrative system could be put in place that would involve absolutely minimal work for our moderators and would return immeasureable benefits to our members.

On the other hand, if things continue as they have been, how many more collector/dealers like Ward, and I also fall into this category, will simply say:- "enough is enough, I'm not passing my knowledge along to other dealers". If this happens the pure collectors here will suffer great loss, because in general, dealers have access to more knowledge than people who do not deal.

PS--- I was about to post the above, and noted the post by Dizos. What he has written is very close to what is in my mind.

kai · 25th November 2009, 09:38 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

I can understand David's stance that what happens outside the bounds of this site are not the concern of the people who regulate activity on this site. In fact, this was my own attitude at the outset of this discussion, however I am no longer certain that this attitude is the desireable one. It is certainly the most simple attitude to adopt, but I do have a problem with covert dealers extracting information to use in a sales pitch in another place.

Yes, I agree that asking and communicating with members may help to minimize unwanted exploitation of the community.

Quote:

Ward has already pointed this out and said that it is the reason he no longer posts comment very often.

Yes, and he's certainly not alone: There are several recent examples of threads which suffer from less-than-usual feedback obviously due to the perceived intention of fishing for information.

Regards,
Kai

Naga Sasra · 26th November 2009, 03:46 AM

A large part of the problem is how to identify sellers, and yet keep it simple Alan had a good suggestion: Just ask them!

I also think that perhaps it would be prudent to develop a line of pertinant questions which have to be answered as people register to join the forum, and with this perhaps stop potentially new members from abusing the rules.

As it is presently, all a new prospective member have to do is to select a username, password and email address.

Perhaps a format that include a form with questions to the prospective member is in order. One of those questions of cause would be, Are you a dealer? yes__ no__, Do you regularly deal in edged weapons? yes__ no__ , Are you a collector of edged weapons who only deal in order to enhance your own collection?yes__ no__, etc. etc. etc. etc.

It is my belief that prevention is a powerful tool, and if the questionere is molded correctly, a great deal of the existing problems could be avoided.

Just a suggestion

Naga Sasra · 26th November 2009, 03:58 AM

Since I am thinking out of the box, so to speak. I was also thinking even though I don't really know if this would be possible at all.

If there were a way to change the program, so after a prospective member have identified themselves as dealers give them a password that would only access the Swap Forum.

That would certainly assure the continued posting of material in the Swap Forum, and at the same time prevent the dealers from stealing listing materiel for use in other venues.

David · 26th November 2009, 02:51 PM

Well let's try this. I would hope that a good number of the Warung membership is currently monitoring this thread, especially the dealers. Sooooo, if you regularly deal in keris and related edged weapons, step up to the plate and tell us straight out. Seriously, who is a dealer out there? Yes, i probably already know, but i'd like to here it from you. Even if dealing is just a part-time thing for you or a collector who regularly turns weapons around for profit, you should declare that. Now's the time to let it officially be know.

Spunjer · 26th November 2009, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well let's try this. I would hope that a good number of the Warung membership is currently monitoring this thread, especially the dealers. Sooooo, if you regularly deal in keris and related edged weapons, step up to the plate and tell us straight out. Seriously, who is a dealer out there? Yes, i probably already know, but i'd like to here it from you. Even if dealing is just a part-time thing for you or a collector who regularly turns weapons around for profit, you should declare that. Now's the time to let it officially be know.

david, i think you should start a new thread on this...

Quote:

I do not post in the keris forum,but I do in the other forums. I am a dealer and a collector for many years, but I do not post items that I am going to sell in the discussion forums only items that are from my personal collection. The use of the forum as a catalog or as a sales advertisement has been happening with more frequencey the last few years. The result being that I do not respond to post very often any more. Why should I do a dealers research for him ?

BINGO!

ward · 26th November 2009, 08:01 PM

It is no secret that I am a dealer and never has been so I do not understand the Bingo.

Rick · 26th November 2009, 02:52 PM

Thank you all and keep the ideas coming .
I have contacted Lee about the forum software's capabilities; when I have a better idea of what can be altered we will proceed .

We must remember; we are not discussing Vikingsword's Site policy for the other forums or members .

Just the Warung .

26th November 2009, 02:51 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	OK, DEALERS DECLARE YOURSELVES! Well let's try this. I would hope that a good number of the Warung membership is currently monitoring this thread, especially the dealers. Sooooo, if you regularly deal in keris and related edged weapons, step up to the plate and tell us straight out. Seriously, who is a dealer out there? Yes, i probably already know, but i'd like to here it from you. Even if dealing is just a part-time thing for you or a collector who regularly turns weapons around for profit, you should declare that. Now's the time to let it officially be know.

24th November 2009, 09:53 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	There has been some good, solid input to this discussion. Its great to see such a reaction on a topic which affects us all. I endorse completely Rick's and David's declared intention to keep things simple. I can understand David's stance that what happens outside the bounds of this site are not the concern of the people who regulate activity on this site. In fact, this was my own attitude at the outset of this discussion, however I am no longer certain that this attitude is the desireable one. It is certainly the most simple attitude to adopt, but I do have a problem with covert dealers extracting information to use in a sales pitch in another place. Let me state up front that this would make not the slightest difference to me, because I do not buy in the same places that collectors buy. I have only ever bought two keris from Ebay , and both were keris that I had previously sold. I have never bought from the Swap Forum. However, if a covert dealer extracts information by use of this Forum to assist his sales pitch, and thus the price realised, of an item he wishes to sell, he is in fact using the information supplied by collectors against those collectors. I consider this to be unethical behaviour. Ward has already pointed this out and said that it is the reason he no longer posts comment very often. Think about this:- all knowledge costs money and time to acquire if a collector passes that knowledge on to somebody he regards as a fellow collector, he is giving that fellow collector a gift of his time, money, indeed of his life if he passes the knowledge to a dealer who has posed as a collector in order to gain the knowledge, and who then uses that knowledge to increase the price of something he wishes to sell, then in my view, the dealer has stolen the knowledge from the collector; he has obtained the knowledge by deception. in short:- the dealer has acted in an unethical fashion. I believe that this Forum should attempt to assist its members by a policy of identifying unethical behaviour by dealers. I am not suggesting for one moment that such dealers should be identified openly. Nobody wants potential issues for litigation. But I am suggesting that unethical dealers should be denied the fellowship of this Forum. Keep them out. Now the question is this:- how do we identify a dealer? to my mind the answer is simple:- we ask The relevant question could take a bit of thought to frame in an adequate fashion, but it could be done. If a member states that he is not a dealer, and then demonstrates dealer-like behaviour he should be asked to explain, and if the explanation is inadequate, action should be taken against him. Where a known dealer has acted in an unethical fashion that dealer should be asked to explain and if the explanation is unsatisfactory then action should taken against him. All of this may sound complicated and possibly draconian, however in action it need not be. I believe that with thought, a simple administrative system could be put in place that would involve absolutely minimal work for our moderators and would return immeasureable benefits to our members. On the other hand, if things continue as they have been, how many more collector/dealers like Ward, and I also fall into this category, will simply say:- "enough is enough, I'm not passing my knowledge along to other dealers". If this happens the pure collectors here will suffer great loss, because in general, dealers have access to more knowledge than people who do not deal. PS--- I was about to post the above, and noted the post by Dizos. What he has written is very close to what is in my mind.

26th November 2009, 03:46 AM	#3
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	A large part of the problem is how to identify sellers, and yet keep it simple Alan had a good suggestion: Just ask them! I also think that perhaps it would be prudent to develop a line of pertinant questions which have to be answered as people register to join the forum, and with this perhaps stop potentially new members from abusing the rules. As it is presently, all a new prospective member have to do is to select a username, password and email address. Perhaps a format that include a form with questions to the prospective member is in order. One of those questions of cause would be, Are you a dealer? yes__ no__, Do you regularly deal in edged weapons? yes__ no__ , Are you a collector of edged weapons who only deal in order to enhance your own collection?yes__ no__, etc. etc. etc. etc. It is my belief that prevention is a powerful tool, and if the questionere is molded correctly, a great deal of the existing problems could be avoided. Just a suggestion

26th November 2009, 03:58 AM	#4
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Since I am thinking out of the box, so to speak. I was also thinking even though I don't really know if this would be possible at all. If there were a way to change the program, so after a prospective member have identified themselves as dealers give them a password that would only access the Swap Forum. That would certainly assure the continued posting of material in the Swap Forum, and at the same time prevent the dealers from stealing listing materiel for use in other venues.

26th November 2009, 08:01 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	It is no secret that I am a dealer and never has been so I do not understand the Bingo.

26th November 2009, 02:52 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Thank you all and keep the ideas coming . I have contacted Lee about the forum software's capabilities; when I have a better idea of what can be altered we will proceed . We must remember; we are not discussing Vikingsword's Site policy for the other forums or members . Just the Warung .