Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

M ELEY · 24th November 2009, 07:39 AM

Thanks to all involved who have taken the time to tackle this tricky item. Likewise, a special thanks to you, Jim, for noting the sometimes difficult position of posting an "unknown", versus a known specimen for discussion. (This reminds me of some of the friction I created when posting an axe in the past that I thought could have been a "private purchase" boarding axe. No material exists on the subject other than conjecture based on classic naval models and what a merchantman piece might have resembled. Many would only choose to purchase a known, marked piece rather than take a chance on something that might not be the real deal. I don't mind taking chances, provided I don't spend a bundle doing it-

)

When I posted this item, I left it open for discussion and am fascinated where it has gone. I mean, at least it did garner some attention. While not over-joyed that it isn't colonial American, I do find it pleasing that it could very well be West African, either Dahomey (slave trade heavily associated with piracy) or Maghreb (piracy directly). While it is embarassing to be so far off in my initial thoughts on this piece, I will absolutely stick by my opinion as to the age of this piece. The pics (poor ones made by me, I admit) don't do it justice, nor show the true age. The wood has a patina as dark as my old boarding pike discussed recently. The blade has patina, wear, and mild pitting reminescent of several colonial pieces I possess (the marking in question is so faint, I cannot tell for sure if it is just a forging flaw or a long-worn mark- sorry!). Even the lead(?), pewter (?) has an old dull luster exactly like my Victorian-era tavern flask. I have no doubt that it is pre-1900, even if it's origin remains a little fuzzy. In any case, hope that an example of something similar out there may turn up.

Dmitry · 25th November 2009, 04:41 PM

Anthony Tirri's book on Islamic weapons doesn't have any weapons with a similar grip.

Dmitry · 28th November 2009, 02:53 PM

Jim, here's what a WWII Patton-bladed dagger looks like. There are variations, this particular one is by Anderson.

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2009, 06:41 PM

Hi Dmitry,
Thanks very much for the photos......looks like a cast bayonet hilt.
Not exactly a Fairburn-Sykes

but looks like it would do the job.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 8th January 2010, 12:37 PM

www.apacheria.com/images/ew204.jpg
www.apacheria.com/images/ew204b.jpg
www.apacheria.com/images/ew204c.jpg

OK, so is this Spanish/Mexican colonial work? It sure looks like later 19th century Mex piece to me, complete with classic hilt shape and 3 barred guard. Forgot to mention that it is listed as a Mex sword on the website. Note the turned quillon on this piece and how it compares to mine. I have since seen another late-Mex piece in an old Fagan catalog that likewise had some type of tin/nickol wrap-around. Gaudy-looking, but an espada, none-the-less. Likewise, I have been pouring through web-sites and our onw forum, ut have yet to encounter a W. African sword with a hilt like mine. This isn't a pride-thing, I assure you. I'm neutral on it's origin, I just want some closure!! (

)- Don't we all on these anomalous pieces...

M ELEY · 9th January 2010, 02:02 AM

Bump. Anyone? Does this sword I posted lend some credence to Mex/Colonial Spanish or is there any proof that this new posting is ALSO of W African origin?? Note how even the D-guard grip are similar.

Here's another Mex sword with the same curve to the quillon, similar to the one on mine-

www.ambroseantiques.com/swords/mexican.htm

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2010, 05:29 AM

Hi Mark,
Well theres another interesting example! Again, this looks very much like the makeshift work representing established traditional sword types in Mexico, but post colonial period. Sabres similar to these are described in the Adams article on espada anchas as 'round tang' espadas, and they typically had multibar guards ('gavilan'). The blade on this is of espada ancha type but later, along with the very modern elements on the hilt with copper and aluminum.
It is not hard to imagine West Africa brought into the picture with some of these types of one off pieces which are all the more difficult to identify as there are seldom parallel items with which to compare them. Without actual handling of these, by appearance they have typological characteristics of the Mexican espadas, but the very modern components create concerns about likely refurbishing in more modern times.

All the best,
Jim

28th November 2009, 02:53 PM	#3
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Jim, here's what a WWII Patton-bladed dagger looks like. There are variations, this particular one is by Anderson. Attached Images

8th January 2010, 12:37 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Ahhh...the game is (still) afoot! www.apacheria.com/images/ew204.jpg www.apacheria.com/images/ew204b.jpg www.apacheria.com/images/ew204c.jpg OK, so is this Spanish/Mexican colonial work? It sure looks like later 19th century Mex piece to me, complete with classic hilt shape and 3 barred guard. Forgot to mention that it is listed as a Mex sword on the website. Note the turned quillon on this piece and how it compares to mine. I have since seen another late-Mex piece in an old Fagan catalog that likewise had some type of tin/nickol wrap-around. Gaudy-looking, but an espada, none-the-less. Likewise, I have been pouring through web-sites and our onw forum, ut have yet to encounter a W. African sword with a hilt like mine. This isn't a pride-thing, I assure you. I'm neutral on it's origin, I just want some closure!! ( )- Don't we all on these anomalous pieces... Last edited by M ELEY; 8th January 2010 at 12:48 PM.

9th January 2010, 02:02 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Bump. Anyone? Does this sword I posted lend some credence to Mex/Colonial Spanish or is there any proof that this new posting is ALSO of W African origin?? Note how even the D-guard grip are similar. Here's another Mex sword with the same curve to the quillon, similar to the one on mine- www.ambroseantiques.com/swords/mexican.htm Last edited by M ELEY; 9th January 2010 at 08:07 AM.

24th November 2009, 07:39 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Thanks to all involved who have taken the time to tackle this tricky item. Likewise, a special thanks to you, Jim, for noting the sometimes difficult position of posting an "unknown", versus a known specimen for discussion. (This reminds me of some of the friction I created when posting an axe in the past that I thought could have been a "private purchase" boarding axe. No material exists on the subject other than conjecture based on classic naval models and what a merchantman piece might have resembled. Many would only choose to purchase a known, marked piece rather than take a chance on something that might not be the real deal. I don't mind taking chances, provided I don't spend a bundle doing it- ) When I posted this item, I left it open for discussion and am fascinated where it has gone. I mean, at least it did garner some attention. While not over-joyed that it isn't colonial American, I do find it pleasing that it could very well be West African, either Dahomey (slave trade heavily associated with piracy) or Maghreb (piracy directly). While it is embarassing to be so far off in my initial thoughts on this piece, I will absolutely stick by my opinion as to the age of this piece. The pics (poor ones made by me, I admit) don't do it justice, nor show the true age. The wood has a patina as dark as my old boarding pike discussed recently. The blade has patina, wear, and mild pitting reminescent of several colonial pieces I possess (the marking in question is so faint, I cannot tell for sure if it is just a forging flaw or a long-worn mark- sorry!). Even the lead(?), pewter (?) has an old dull luster exactly like my Victorian-era tavern flask. I have no doubt that it is pre-1900, even if it's origin remains a little fuzzy. In any case, hope that an example of something similar out there may turn up.

25th November 2009, 04:41 PM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Anthony Tirri's book on Islamic weapons doesn't have any weapons with a similar grip.

28th November 2009, 06:41 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,510	Hi Dmitry, Thanks very much for the photos......looks like a cast bayonet hilt. Not exactly a Fairburn-Sykes but looks like it would do the job. All the best, Jim

9th January 2010, 05:29 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,510	Hi Mark, Well theres another interesting example! Again, this looks very much like the makeshift work representing established traditional sword types in Mexico, but post colonial period. Sabres similar to these are described in the Adams article on espada anchas as 'round tang' espadas, and they typically had multibar guards ('gavilan'). The blade on this is of espada ancha type but later, along with the very modern elements on the hilt with copper and aluminum. It is not hard to imagine West Africa brought into the picture with some of these types of one off pieces which are all the more difficult to identify as there are seldom parallel items with which to compare them. Without actual handling of these, by appearance they have typological characteristics of the Mexican espadas, but the very modern components create concerns about likely refurbishing in more modern times. All the best, Jim