Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

[katana]

Hi Mark,
perhaps you should put this piece on the Ethnographic Forum....not everyone views the European one and you might get more input

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Mark,
perhaps you should put this piece on the Ethnographic Forum....not everyone views the European one and you might get more input

Regards David

GRRRRR!!!!!!!
Sad....but true.

Actually this thread has gotten monumentally more mileage than the one I posted not too long ago to try talking about espada anchas. Clearly the term 'Spanish hanger' works better, as not that many out there recognize the espada ancha (=Sp. wide sword, broadly describing frontier hangers and swords in New Spain).

Dmitry, I think the attributions discussed so far are probably pretty thoroughly as much as can be assessed, and I agree with Mark's position on it overall. I think these are vintage components (and I will find that scrolled pommel strap someplace!) and assembled in the manner that those who desperately need weapons typically have found through the centuries....in any way they can.
Rather than having the appearance of a piece intended to be passed off as something it is not, it seems more a working piece, and using components as best as possible. I have an old Spanish piece comprised of the larger part of one of the Spanish dragoon blades (Do not draw me without reason etc.); the hilt of a briquet (cast brass infantry hanger); and the three bar guard of a cavalry sabre........obviously components that were incongruent, but on the frontiers, pretty didnt matter. Anybody who knows about these rugged wildernesses and those who survived in them knows..everything got recycled!

The pewter or whatever it is, metal, as Peter describes, is certainly a malleable component and the only question really is, how long ago would this particular caged grip have been fashioned? The components such as the blade (and would like to know if there are marks on the blade as 'hawkeye' David keenly observed! and the guard are old.

Best regards,
Jim

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

GRRRRR!!!!!!!

Dmitry, I think the attributions discussed so far are probably pretty thoroughly as much as can be assessed,

Previous page is full of attributions, from Philippines to North Africa.
It's time to produce some material evidence!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Previous page is full of attributions, from Philippines to North Africa.
It's time to produce some material evidence!

Well noted Dmitry, thats always what we hope for, and I know I'll be using whatever resources I have and can find to add whatever I might locate. I think thats the best part of all this..the learning. Mark has always had a certain acumen for finding intriquing examples that often reveal interesting histories, so I'm sure theres a unique story in this one somewhere.

I just noticed the interesting and colorful item that David posted has the scrolled D guard element at crossguard terminal and pommel cap. While this Philippine fantasy item is obviously turista stuff, these can sometimes reflect influences seen in actual weapons of the past, present or both.

I recall some years ago while resesrching the M1913 Patton swords of the U.S.Army I discovered that at some point just prior to or during WWII many of these were cut down to form fighting knives/dirks. I have never seen one of these in altered form, but must have looked formidable with the huge bowl guard!

The point is the ersatz modification of weapons into fighting forms that were more suitable for thier intended use in the time. As I mentioned earlier, village blacksmiths in Mexico constantly turned out unbelievable and often some quite ungainly appearing weapons in the colorful and turbulent history of that country. Since components of old weapons that had sometimes been around for a century or even more were used, not only were these odd pieces hard to assess, but the numbers of early period weapons diminished notably.

This quite understandable phenomenon is nothing new or unusual, and factoring in trade routes and geopolitical 'turbulence' in many cultural spheres and colonial regions, the potential for accuracy or plausibility for these type weapons becomes a daunting challenge. This is why many shy away from entering in on making observations and comments, especially here, and why such material is often slow in forthcoming.

With that noted, my compliments to Mark, for his ever amazing fortitude and optimism in acquiring these interesting and challenging items; to those who constantly 'pick up the gauntlet' ...David, Peter and Colin with plausible and well placed assessments and to you Dmitry, for extending the courtesy of posting, even though as you say, you had nothing in particular to add.

That gesture means a lot!!! And hopefully says something to the host of lurking readers out there who are afraid of posting for fear of being chastized or whatever other reasons they have .........it takes courage at times to make comments, especially on topics one might know little of.
Its called participation, and sincerely appreciated, thank you guys.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I recall some years ago while resesrching the M1913 Patton swords of the U.S.Army I discovered that at some point just prior to or during WWII many of these were cut down to form fighting knives/dirks. I have never seen one of these in altered form, but must have looked formidable with the huge bowl guard!

Actually, the only thing that was used for these fighting daggers [not really knives, since the edges were not sharpened, if I remember correctly] were the cut down Patton sword blades. The handles were made to fit by the artisans. Basket guards were discarded.

I'll look through my sources tonight. Perhaps I'll find something simi8lar to Mark's piece.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Actually, the only thing that was used for these fighting daggers [not really knives, since the edges were not sharpened, if I remember correctly] were the cut down Patton sword blades. The handles were made to fit by the artisans. Basket guards were discarded.

I'll look through my sources tonight. Perhaps I'll find something simi8lar to Mark's piece.

Thanks for that info Dmitry! I'll put that with my notes....I kinda wondered how effective those huge bowl guards would have been. All it said in the reference I had, from what I recall, was that these swords were cut down, but no reference specifically to blade or hilt etc.

Thank you for checking further for more on Marks piece, I wish I had access to more of my old notes!!! Its just great to have teamwork in checking into these things.

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks to all involved who have taken the time to tackle this tricky item. Likewise, a special thanks to you, Jim, for noting the sometimes difficult position of posting an "unknown", versus a known specimen for discussion. (This reminds me of some of the friction I created when posting an axe in the past that I thought could have been a "private purchase" boarding axe. No material exists on the subject other than conjecture based on classic naval models and what a merchantman piece might have resembled. Many would only choose to purchase a known, marked piece rather than take a chance on something that might not be the real deal. I don't mind taking chances, provided I don't spend a bundle doing it- )

When I posted this item, I left it open for discussion and am fascinated where it has gone. I mean, at least it did garner some attention. While not over-joyed that it isn't colonial American, I do find it pleasing that it could very well be West African, either Dahomey (slave trade heavily associated with piracy) or Maghreb (piracy directly). While it is embarassing to be so far off in my initial thoughts on this piece, I will absolutely stick by my opinion as to the age of this piece. The pics (poor ones made by me, I admit) don't do it justice, nor show the true age. The wood has a patina as dark as my old boarding pike discussed recently. The blade has patina, wear, and mild pitting reminescent of several colonial pieces I possess (the marking in question is so faint, I cannot tell for sure if it is just a forging flaw or a long-worn mark- sorry!). Even the lead(?), pewter (?) has an old dull luster exactly like my Victorian-era tavern flask. I have no doubt that it is pre-1900, even if it's origin remains a little fuzzy. In any case, hope that an example of something similar out there may turn up.