two Dutch medieval daggers

cornelistromp · 13th November 2009, 06:12 PM

wheelpommeldagger Mueller Eur. hieb und stichwaffen.

katana · 15th November 2009, 06:38 PM

Hi
like Marc, I have reservations regarding the same dagger. I too freely admit I am no expert on medieval daggers....but several features do seem 'alien' to the daggers of the period.

The blade sits 'uneasily' within the cross guard and is not central. Rust and decay in that area could account for this, but with the good 'preservation' suggested, seems unlikely. The forte/tang area ( shoulder) would be shaped to fit the crossguard slot/hole to prevent movement, the handle and pommel once fitted 'locking' the components together.
The relatively deep fuller extends to the point, again AFAIK suggesting the blade has been shortened. Why design a blade that has a weakened point.....especially when it could strike/pierce armour and snap ?

The crossguard recess is almost 'diamond' shaped ....better designed to accommodate a blade that's cross section is square/diamond not a triangular section. This also suggests the crossguard and blade did not 'start life' together.

Also the fort of the blade where it meets the guard is flared .... I have not seen this on a cross guarded dagger of any period (but then this does not mean this is a fact) However, this 'flare' is seen where the blades butt up against a bowl or similar shaped guard.....like the short sword. See photos below.
If you look the size and shaping of these flares seem almost identical.

If this is not a medieval dagger, it is possible that this is a Victorian 'era' 'put together' ....common to the time due to the interest of Romanism and the fascination of the medieval period.

All these observations are from the pictures, which does not necessarily convey the 'whole story'. This is not an attack on the museum curator either, but people make mistakes, so his assessment should only be taken as a guide. After all doctors often seek a 'second opinion' ....even if they are certain their diagnosis is correct.

Look forward to your comments, all the best

Regards David

katana · 23rd November 2009, 03:55 PM

Hi
please has anyone any comments /opinions on my last posting ? I only wanted to put forward a few observations ..... are my conclusions wrong?

I feel that I have 'killed' the thread

.... when my intention was to continue the debate and learn.

Regards David

PS the word "Romanism" in my last posting should have read "Romanticism" ....missed out "tic"

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2009, 04:13 AM

David, just noticed this! Too many things going at once

Please dont feel as if you'killed' the thread here!!! It often happens that once the discussion and observations have saturated, the discussion will stall until other new material surfaces, or debate stalemates. Your observations were brilliantly presented, and compelling....outstanding forensics!!!! Very well written. Having detailed your observations so well it was pretty much a textbook case of examining weapons from photographs.

As one whose comments often appear in the last post of a thread, I have often feared the same thing. Realizing that my purposes in writing are mostly summarizing what I have researched in order to respond, and learn.....I just write. If anyone else learns from what I have found...all the better!!!

I think that you, Marc and Cornelis all have presented excellent perspectives on these daggers, and those who read this thread can well assess the case on them from the detail you have all shown.
Thank you guys! Well done

All very best regards,
Jim

A Senefelder · 1st December 2009, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Also the fort of the blade where it meets the guard is flared .... I have not seen this on a cross guarded dagger of any period (but then this does not mean this is a fact) However, this 'flare' is seen where the blades butt up against a bowl or similar shaped guard.....like the short sword. See photos below.

The flare you mention are the result of hollow grinding. While the technique tends to be associated with three sided, triangular small sword blades it can be found on medieval swords as well. In hallow grinding the grinding wheel is used to create rather than a flat face one that is slightly concave imparting stiffness to the blade. Dr. Jones has a nice 15th century fishtail pommel sword, of the type with a blade that tappers rapidly from forte to point that I had the pleasure of handeling that is hollow ground.

katana · 1st December 2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Senefelder

The flare you mention are the result of hollow grinding. While the technique tends to be associated with three sided, triangular small sword blades it can be found on medieval swords as well. In hallow grinding the grinding wheel is used to create rather than a flat face one that is slightly concave imparting stiffness to the blade. Dr. Jones has a nice 15th century fishtail pommel sword, of the type with a blade that tappers rapidly from forte to point that I had the pleasure of handeling that is hollow ground.

Hi A Senefelder,
thank you for the explaination. Surely though, the 'flares' would be removed....unless it resulted in an added benefit. I think this 'flare' would provide a larger 'surface area' butted up against a bowl/cupped guard....making it more secure....much like a 'washer' fitted under a nut. These 'flares' do not seem to serve any purpose in the recessed cross guard of the dagger shown.

The 15th C fishtailed sword sounds interesting......could you post some pictures ? All the best

Regards David

A Senefelder · 1st December 2009, 08:56 PM

I am not aware of the flares being removed, it simply forms the little bit of forte ( very little in fact ) that exists at least on most of the later smallsword examples i've seen. I cannot find pics of Lee's sword, just one of the two swords of Lee's it was sitting next to. I think this one might be in "Records of the Medieval Sword ", I know a few of Lee's are.

13th November 2009, 06:12 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,063	wheelpommeldagger Mueller Eur. hieb und stichwaffen. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 13th November 2009 at 07:09 PM.

15th November 2009, 06:38 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi like Marc, I have reservations regarding the same dagger. I too freely admit I am no expert on medieval daggers....but several features do seem 'alien' to the daggers of the period. The blade sits 'uneasily' within the cross guard and is not central. Rust and decay in that area could account for this, but with the good 'preservation' suggested, seems unlikely. The forte/tang area ( shoulder) would be shaped to fit the crossguard slot/hole to prevent movement, the handle and pommel once fitted 'locking' the components together. The relatively deep fuller extends to the point, again AFAIK suggesting the blade has been shortened. Why design a blade that has a weakened point.....especially when it could strike/pierce armour and snap ? The crossguard recess is almost 'diamond' shaped ....better designed to accommodate a blade that's cross section is square/diamond not a triangular section. This also suggests the crossguard and blade did not 'start life' together. Also the fort of the blade where it meets the guard is flared .... I have not seen this on a cross guarded dagger of any period (but then this does not mean this is a fact) However, this 'flare' is seen where the blades butt up against a bowl or similar shaped guard.....like the short sword. See photos below. If you look the size and shaping of these flares seem almost identical. If this is not a medieval dagger, it is possible that this is a Victorian 'era' 'put together' ....common to the time due to the interest of Romanism and the fascination of the medieval period. All these observations are from the pictures, which does not necessarily convey the 'whole story'. This is not an attack on the museum curator either, but people make mistakes, so his assessment should only be taken as a guide. After all doctors often seek a 'second opinion' ....even if they are certain their diagnosis is correct. Look forward to your comments, all the best Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 15th November 2009 at 06:57 PM.

23rd November 2009, 03:55 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi please has anyone any comments /opinions on my last posting ? I only wanted to put forward a few observations ..... are my conclusions wrong? I feel that I have 'killed' the thread .... when my intention was to continue the debate and learn. Regards David PS the word "Romanism" in my last posting should have read "Romanticism" ....missed out "tic" Last edited by katana; 23rd November 2009 at 04:11 PM.

25th November 2009, 04:13 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,601	David, just noticed this! Too many things going at once Please dont feel as if you'killed' the thread here!!! It often happens that once the discussion and observations have saturated, the discussion will stall until other new material surfaces, or debate stalemates. Your observations were brilliantly presented, and compelling....outstanding forensics!!!! Very well written. Having detailed your observations so well it was pretty much a textbook case of examining weapons from photographs. As one whose comments often appear in the last post of a thread, I have often feared the same thing. Realizing that my purposes in writing are mostly summarizing what I have researched in order to respond, and learn.....I just write. If anyone else learns from what I have found...all the better!!! I think that you, Marc and Cornelis all have presented excellent perspectives on these daggers, and those who read this thread can well assess the case on them from the detail you have all shown. Thank you guys! Well done All very best regards, Jim

1st December 2009, 08:56 PM	#7
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	I am not aware of the flares being removed, it simply forms the little bit of forte ( very little in fact ) that exists at least on most of the later smallsword examples i've seen. I cannot find pics of Lee's sword, just one of the two swords of Lee's it was sitting next to. I think this one might be in "Records of the Medieval Sword ", I know a few of Lee's are.