FRINGIA

Samik · 9th November 2009, 06:45 PM

Hello Jim,

Thats some fine research, you have done (and thus even answered your original question

). Now that the fringia origins have been somewhat cleared I hope you dont mind me jumping into some other points and discuss some other things in your last post.

Indeed the article from Encyclopaedia Humana Hungarica 05 is very enlighting and well-written
(albeit it also contains some minor errors , such as regarding martolos as being of souther slavic stock only , while other sources like the Encyclopedia of the OTTOMAN empire written by Ágoston/Masters (2009) points out that a great deal of them were also ethnic Vlachs), however I have been always been puzzled by the Handszar/Hançar "short-sword" you mentioned.

Traditionaly the area of balkans and south-eastern europe of the post-conquest era is associated with yatagans or sabres , but I havent seen a single speciment of the aforementioned Handszar. The only reference I have been able to dig up is a similar word in a wikipedia entry on a bosniak-croat SS division

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handschar
The article states that Handschar (Bosnian/Croatian: Handžar) was the local word for the Turkish scimitar a historical symbol of Bosnia and Islam which seem to confuse the matter futher. Also the coat of arms of the division reminds me of a shorter falchion-like hanger rather than a proper Turkish sword or yatagan.

The other point I would like to adress from your post is

Quote:

Hungarian as well as East European, weaponry and military approaches to warfare developed from Turkish models, among clearly many cultural influences

Let me show a different POV on this one. Yes , it would be foolish to deny the great influence ottomans had on its surrounding regions and eastern europe in particular(especially in terms of arms and armour). However military approaches as such were not neccessarily developed/copied from the Turkish-Anatolian model. To put it into perspective, one such example are the ottoman Deliler/Deli horsemen that are regarded as a military unit having the greatest influence on EE hussars (the hussars being practically a copy-cat of them). The Deli horsemen however are according to sources such as Brzezinski, Nicolle as well as primary sources like French traveller Nicolas de Nicolay in his Discours et histoire véritable des navigations, pérégrinations et voyages, faicts en la Turquie, Anvers, 1586` , said to come from western balkan background ..the likes of Croats , Bosniaks , Serbs as well as Albanians. The particular example in Nicolay's book is even an Orthodox Serb , reciting a prayer in Greek and Serbian.

In essence they differed from the "traditional" central asian-turkish way of war. Turks traditionaly relied on composite bow , round "kalkan" shield and some lance work , either with shield , but mostly in a two handed fashion; Delis on the other hand used a combo of the assymetrical "balkan" shield and a couched lance as a primary means of offence. Actually, they remind me more of a traditional knightly lancer (as wierd as its sounds) , but changed by the foe he is facing (being sort of a "lite-edition" that has to fight/counter horse-archers). The assymetrical "balkan-rumelian" shield got also widespread among the Turks themselves , which reminds me that influence is often a two-way streets.

Hope you dont mind the rambling , I got sometimes excited about the topic

Cheers ,
Samuel

Jim McDougall · 9th November 2009, 10:45 PM

Hi David, and thanks for the note and adding that page illustrating this term and variants with the 'sickle' marks!!

Samuel, its great to see your absolutely magnificent response, and thank you so much for the detail and clarifying my statement. Your post was exactly what I look for in responses, well thought out and supported statements, and not in the least bit 'rambling'!!!

Thank you for the kind words on my research and good notes on that word 'hancar/handszar', which is apparantly the probable orogin of the term 'hanger' for shorter swords of the familiar forms we see in European military etc.
I had read about the origins of that term years ago, but could not find a satisfactory connection with my limited understanding of linguistics.

I am wondering what the Turkish 'loan' word that originated 'fringia' as 'fine steel'?
On those swords and weapons depicted in coats of arms and many forms of classical illustration, most of these are quite fanciful and we cannot really rely on them for interpretations of contemporary weapons. I've run into this so many times, and recently trying to establish the form of a sword in earlier period, the depictions were of the same almost cartoonish style often seen in the same literature referring to 'scimitar'. This is of course more a literary term than actual sword type, though the shamshir is believed the source of the term.

I really do appreciate the extraordinary attention you have given to describing the development of these units, and better explaining what my statement should have said. If my wife (my editor in chief!!!

would have seen that comment it would've been the old bop on the head!!!

I have always considered the extremely complex history of Eastern Europe and the Balkans one of the most fascinating theatres of study, and I'm so glad to have your input and well written observations placed here.
Your excitement on these topics is much appreciated, and again, may thanks!

All very best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 10th November 2009, 03:22 AM

Hi Jim et al,

Unfortunately I can’t add much to the above except to place a number of quotes I have found.

“Hungarian blade production, if it existed at all, must have been very limited, for seventeenth-century records tell of blade purchase in mass from Styrian and Italian manufacturies, and the great majority of surviving Hungarian sabers have Styrian or Genovese blades, often marked with crescent moons and the inscription <<GENOA>>, <<FRINGIA>>, <<FRANCIA>>, probably regarded as indications of quality in the East.” Jan Ostrowski, Wojciech Bochnak “Polish Sabers ;Their Origins and Evolution”, Arts, and Armour: Held. Pg. 226

…”Also this type often had blades bearing maker’s marks called “sickles” and associated with Genoa, as well as inscriptions reading “Genoa”, “Fringia” or similar ones. This is linked with the lively activities of the north-Italian centers which at that time exported blades to Hungary and also to the countries of the Islamic East. Both the “sickle” marks and the inscriptions were soon adopted by the Styrian centers which first of all met the demands of the Hapsburg monarchy. A view is current that the Polish workshops, notably those in Gdansk, acted similarly." Nadolski, “Polish Arms-Side Arms”, Pg 35

I am note sure where the picture of Buendia came from, but a reproduction is found in Askhabov, ”Chechen Arms” Pg.68 to illustrate the “Gurda” mark. I can’t tell where the original is from, but, I would guess Astvatsaturyan. I would check if I could but I am still waiting for the English version

.

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2009, 06:23 AM

Outstanding Jeff!!! Those are great quotes from yet another group of books which didnt get into the bookmobile when the 'odyssey' began over two years ago!!

Except Held, which I forgot had the Ostrowski article.
Thank you for adding these, which really do support the 'quality' use of these words or terms.

Its great to see you here again Jeff,

Take care, all the best,
Jim

ariel · 25th November 2009, 05:43 PM

The picture of the multiple "gurda" markings with a word Frinia indeed, comes from the Astvatsaturyan's book " Weapons of Caucasian nations"
Quote Jim:
I think it was Ariel who once suggested the word might be associated to the term 'ferangi', often used as we know to describe certain weapons in India with trade blades (ferangi, phirangi= foreign), which I thought brilliantly astute. The earlier use of the word on the Bathory sword would unfortunately appear to defeat this possibility, and I'd like to know more on that.
Well, Jim-sensei, I apologize humbly and profusely, but I have a counter-argument.
Firangi was a word originally reserved for the Portugese; they came to India in 1498. Thus, I see no reason why the word could not have been used in the first half of the 16th century ( King Bathory).My point was that as soon as the Europeans realized that the natives liked the imported blades and called them Firangi, it only made sense to manufacture as many blades clearly marked Fringia to make the natives happy: " I have a real Firangi; it came from the Land of Fringia!"
And some of these blades unquestionably found their way to Central Europe, Caucasus etc.

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2009, 08:38 PM

Hi Ariel,
No need to apologize for that my friend, actually I was hoping for just that

Thank you for bringing the thread back up, and for a well presented counter position which is compelling indeed, and makes very good sense. I am far from being any kind of linguist, so it would be interesting to discover more on the entrance of the firangi/phirangi term into the dialects of Indian language. It seems quite possible that the FRINGIA term therefore might have an Ottoman Turkish root that entered the languages in Eastern Europe as well as those in India with the contact there in varying degree, then as noted, factoring in Portuguese contact .

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 26th November 2009, 04:48 AM

Would it be possible that the word Feringhi to derive simply from Franks? Another spelling on the blades ( as mentioned above) is Francia.

10th November 2009, 03:22 AM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim et al, Unfortunately I can’t add much to the above except to place a number of quotes I have found. “Hungarian blade production, if it existed at all, must have been very limited, for seventeenth-century records tell of blade purchase in mass from Styrian and Italian manufacturies, and the great majority of surviving Hungarian sabers have Styrian or Genovese blades, often marked with crescent moons and the inscription <<GENOA>>, <<FRINGIA>>, <<FRANCIA>>, probably regarded as indications of quality in the East.” Jan Ostrowski, Wojciech Bochnak “Polish Sabers ;Their Origins and Evolution”, Arts, and Armour: Held. Pg. 226 …”Also this type often had blades bearing maker’s marks called “sickles” and associated with Genoa, as well as inscriptions reading “Genoa”, “Fringia” or similar ones. This is linked with the lively activities of the north-Italian centers which at that time exported blades to Hungary and also to the countries of the Islamic East. Both the “sickle” marks and the inscriptions were soon adopted by the Styrian centers which first of all met the demands of the Hapsburg monarchy. A view is current that the Polish workshops, notably those in Gdansk, acted similarly." Nadolski, “Polish Arms-Side Arms”, Pg 35 I am note sure where the picture of Buendia came from, but a reproduction is found in Askhabov, ”Chechen Arms” Pg.68 to illustrate the “Gurda” mark. I can’t tell where the original is from, but, I would guess Astvatsaturyan. I would check if I could but I am still waiting for the English version . All the Best Jeff Attached Images

9th November 2009, 10:45 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Hi David, and thanks for the note and adding that page illustrating this term and variants with the 'sickle' marks!! Samuel, its great to see your absolutely magnificent response, and thank you so much for the detail and clarifying my statement. Your post was exactly what I look for in responses, well thought out and supported statements, and not in the least bit 'rambling'!!! Thank you for the kind words on my research and good notes on that word 'hancar/handszar', which is apparantly the probable orogin of the term 'hanger' for shorter swords of the familiar forms we see in European military etc. I had read about the origins of that term years ago, but could not find a satisfactory connection with my limited understanding of linguistics. I am wondering what the Turkish 'loan' word that originated 'fringia' as 'fine steel'? On those swords and weapons depicted in coats of arms and many forms of classical illustration, most of these are quite fanciful and we cannot really rely on them for interpretations of contemporary weapons. I've run into this so many times, and recently trying to establish the form of a sword in earlier period, the depictions were of the same almost cartoonish style often seen in the same literature referring to 'scimitar'. This is of course more a literary term than actual sword type, though the shamshir is believed the source of the term. I really do appreciate the extraordinary attention you have given to describing the development of these units, and better explaining what my statement should have said. If my wife (my editor in chief!!! would have seen that comment it would've been the old bop on the head!!! I have always considered the extremely complex history of Eastern Europe and the Balkans one of the most fascinating theatres of study, and I'm so glad to have your input and well written observations placed here. Your excitement on these topics is much appreciated, and again, may thanks! All very best regards, Jim

10th November 2009, 06:23 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Outstanding Jeff!!! Those are great quotes from yet another group of books which didnt get into the bookmobile when the 'odyssey' began over two years ago!! Except Held, which I forgot had the Ostrowski article. Thank you for adding these, which really do support the 'quality' use of these words or terms. Its great to see you here again Jeff, Take care, all the best, Jim

25th November 2009, 05:43 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The picture of the multiple "gurda" markings with a word Frinia indeed, comes from the Astvatsaturyan's book " Weapons of Caucasian nations" Quote Jim: I think it was Ariel who once suggested the word might be associated to the term 'ferangi', often used as we know to describe certain weapons in India with trade blades (ferangi, phirangi= foreign), which I thought brilliantly astute. The earlier use of the word on the Bathory sword would unfortunately appear to defeat this possibility, and I'd like to know more on that. Well, Jim-sensei, I apologize humbly and profusely, but I have a counter-argument. Firangi was a word originally reserved for the Portugese; they came to India in 1498. Thus, I see no reason why the word could not have been used in the first half of the 16th century ( King Bathory).My point was that as soon as the Europeans realized that the natives liked the imported blades and called them Firangi, it only made sense to manufacture as many blades clearly marked Fringia to make the natives happy: " I have a real Firangi; it came from the Land of Fringia!" And some of these blades unquestionably found their way to Central Europe, Caucasus etc.

25th November 2009, 08:38 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Hi Ariel, No need to apologize for that my friend, actually I was hoping for just that Thank you for bringing the thread back up, and for a well presented counter position which is compelling indeed, and makes very good sense. I am far from being any kind of linguist, so it would be interesting to discover more on the entrance of the firangi/phirangi term into the dialects of Indian language. It seems quite possible that the FRINGIA term therefore might have an Ottoman Turkish root that entered the languages in Eastern Europe as well as those in India with the contact there in varying degree, then as noted, factoring in Portuguese contact . All the best, Jim

26th November 2009, 04:48 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Would it be possible that the word Feringhi to derive simply from Franks? Another spelling on the blades ( as mentioned above) is Francia.