Sumatran / Bugis ID

[Moshah]

That's my point; I've seen most sumbawa with nickel pamors, and of course the besi baja in the middle. I've seen sumbawa with meteorite pamor too, or claimed to be of meteorite pamor. Since there is vivid differences between nickel pamor and meteorite pamor, so I take it as it is told

This blade pamor works are unlike any sumbawa pieces i've ever seen. Obviously no pamor gunungan / junjung darjat at the sorsoran, and I dunno but it doesn't looks like nickel too.

[David]

Originally Posted by Moshah

I've seen sumbawa with meteorite pamor too, or claimed to be of meteorite pamor. Since there is vivid differences between nickel pamor and meteorite pamor, so I take it as it is told
This blade pamor works are unlike any sumbawa pieces i've ever seen. Obviously no pamor gunungan / junjung darjat at the sorsoran, and I dunno but it doesn't looks like nickel too.

hmmm.... are you seem to be implying that you suspect the pamor of your keris might be from meteorite? We have had many discussions on these boards about meteoric pamor and the general consensus that i took away from those threads was that it is pretty much near to impossible to identify pamor as definitely being meteorite or not without provenance to support it. I am not sure what "vivid differences" you have noted between terrestrial nickel meteoric pamor and one should keep in mind that meteoric pamor generally is nickel, just not nickel from a terrestrial source.

[David]

If i had to make a call on this keris which obviously has a mix of influences working for it i think i would guess the origins of the blade as Bugis influenced Sumatran. To me the sheath is clearly Sulawesi. Does it have a tight fit? (Was it made for the blade?)
The hilt also seems Sumatran, though i agree that motifs are some that i have not seen before.

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by David

hmmm.... are you seem to be implying that you suspect the pamor of your keris might be from meteorite? We have had many discussions on these boards about meteoric pamor and the general consensus that i took away from those threads was that it is pretty much near to impossible to identify pamor as definitely being meteorite or not without provenance to support it. I am not sure what "vivid differences" you have noted between terrestrial nickel meteoric pamor and one should keep in mind that meteoric pamor generally is nickel, just not nickel from a terrestrial source.

No, David you got me wrong. What I am trying to say is I've seen a bugis keris with meteorite pamor (not MY keris was having meteorite pamor, I wouldn't dare to admit that unless with proper provenance too ). The bugis keris with meteorite pamor belongs to someone that has learned keris from javanese experts and I did not expect people of this caliber would say something bluntly. I also seen some keris with meteorite pamor from TMII, which were told by people who do tangguhan keris there. But I am not sure 100%, you know...

However, as you said, meteorite also contains nickel but perhaps when it's used for making pamor, the proportions are different from our earthly nickels, so it does make the difference.

[khalifah muda]

hi David,

i think there's some confusion here....i'm getting confused too.. What i'm trying to say was, Sumbawa doesn't only have blade with nickel kinda layout...they have all kind of metals used. Nothing meteorite addressing MOshah's blade in this case.

Originally Posted by David

hmmm.... are you seem to be implying that you suspect the pamor of your keris might be from meteorite? We have had many discussions on these boards about meteoric pamor and the general consensus that i took away from those threads was that it is pretty much near to impossible to identify pamor as definitely being meteorite or not without provenance to support it. I am not sure what "vivid differences" you have noted between terrestrial nickel meteoric pamor and one should keep in mind that meteoric pamor generally is nickel, just not nickel from a terrestrial source.

[David]

I was really only address the suggestion that there are "vivid differences" (as in visual differences) between meteoric and terrestrial nickel pamor. I don't think there are and i am not so sure that even the "experts" can tell based on visual observation alone. In fact in our discussions here there was even a question as to whether scientific structural analysis can tell the difference as any structure inheerent to meteorite would be destroyed in the forging process. So i personally take any assertion that a pamor is meteoric with a huge grain of salt regardless of the amount of expertise the assessor might have.

[Moshah]

Agreeable, David.

Some people said that the meteorite pamor can be traced not only looking, but by gently touch it (basically, touch the keris' surface), and it is meteorite if it's texture against keris' texture is rough.

I would never be sure, nor believing everything i heard, but when there is no conclusion at hand, we need something to hang on to until we find the right answer...

[Rick]

Dr Hrisoulas wrote quite an interesting post on Meteoric pamor .
Might be worth sifting through again .

This is from the Classics thread, top of the page .
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html

[Moshah]

Wow Rick, thanks for the link!

That was deep and technical. But really informative ...