What is the equivalent of "Wahyu" in other cultures?

[mohd]

Originally Posted by silkreeler

I just learned from some articles that some Javanese believe certain krisses carry with them "wahyu" or divine mandate (loosely translated).

So actually the correct terms to be referred here are tuah keris and isi keris.

BTW, have any of you ever read or heard that certain people could really make a keris to stand staright on it's own tip without any support at all



I guess sometimes we might need to have a good chuckle

Mohd.

[ausjulius]

silkreeler,
as asking if different cultures had or had customs akin to the malay peoples belifes regarding the kris and other weapons ,
i would say a close analog would be the polynesians and melanesians in the pacific,,
aspecialy the maori .
with some clubs being "famous" and being attractive enough to be the source of an attack in invasion from another tribe to capture the item for their own use.. the more note worthy and powerful worriors that the weapon killed or was used to sacrifice the more power it had , and also specific gods and p sprits and ancestors would be associtaed with it, the more people how owned it in the past also could increase its power , the weapon could also take on quests for gots or contain some powers the owner may not be totaly in control or awear of untill they were revealed ...

[Atlantia]

I think that most if not all cultures have some 'history' or attributing a supernatural element to some weapons.
It's not suprising when you consider that often it is weapons technoogy that is at the cutting edge of technological development. It isn't hard to see why that fact and that these items take lives, would lead to them being viewed in such a way.

I can't think of any culture that doesn't have some kind of 'magic' weapons........
Perhaps not Fearns D&D +5 Sentient teleporter But we all seem to have something worth mention.

Of course Excaliber is the most famous magical sword (probobly in the world) But when you think about it, Excalibers powers were not 'that' high on the scale of magical weapons.
After all it was the scabbard that made the wearer invulnerable. Excaliber was just super sharp, could cut anything and could only be broken by being used for dishonorable purpose.
Of course the 'sword in the stone' story has a 'lot' of similarites to Sigfried and 'Gram' being placed in a tree by Odin.
English swords are way harder, they go into stone!


So, how about the Japanese?
Muramasa's swords are cursed and could alegedly produce an effect somewhere between 'bloodlust' and demonic posession in the weilder.

Greek heroes could be given magic swords by the Gods.

Our french members will tell about the paladin Roland's sword Durendal I'm sure.

And if we are going to go the whole hog, then how about the magic weapons weilded by gods and demons?
Thors hammer Mjöllnir (doesn't he chip a shard off of the Rainbow bridge with it that becomes a dagger?), The Arch-Angel Michael slays (other) demons with a sword which is often flaming. Hephestus makes all manner of interesting things in his forge. Diana has a bow, Mars carries a spear, Freyr has a 'dancing' sword... the list is endless!


EDIT: Anyone like fiction? Fred Saberhagens 'books of swords' are pretty freaking sweet if you like your fictional magic weapon stories a bit more meaty that Moorcock.
'Farslayer howls around the world.. for thine heart which hast wronged me'

The guys great! Sci-fi (Berserker novels) to magic swords (Empire of the east onwards) get reading! Pulp fun.

[David]

I would like to point out that legends of Excalibur (originally Caledfwlch) and myths of Greek heroes receiving magic swords from the gods are just that, myths and legends, often written well after the supposed fact. The difference i see with keris and it's concepts of tuah and isi as well of concepts of royal pusaka and the abilities to disperse power and rights of rule through the passing of a specific blade to subservient leaders throughout one's kingdom was not myth or legend, but a living cultural reality. Whether or not one believes that these powers resided within the keris or not is irrelavent. That the people of that culture believed was all that was need to make it true for them. These practices and beliefs are well recorded and documented and can't really be compared with magic swords of the gods or heroes of fiction.
BTW, it seems that Excalibur and the Sword in the Stone were derived from separate myths that at some point became one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

[mohd]

The most famous keris in Malay culture is Keris Taming Sari. Click here and here to know more about Keris Taming Sari

Mohd.

[fearn]

Hi David,

Generally, the sword in the stone and Excalibur were different weapons. Is Disney the one that conflated them?

There's an interesting dichotomy that I think the keris terminology has caught: there are magical swords that can do things normal blades cannot do. This is similar to the isi concept (If I understand tuah, it's more of a categorical property than an individual one). This is Excalibur, which was given by, and returned to, the Lady in the Lake.

Then there's the pusaka concept, which is a keris that (as I understand it, and leaving out the spiritual dimension) legitimizes power and relationships. This is more of the Sword in the Stone, which was thrust into the stone by Arthur's father, as a means for recognizing his rightful heir after his death. The concepts are not identical, but then, the concept of pusaka being tied into a weapon is not so common in European folklore, I think.

[A. G. Maisey]

The keris as pusaka cannot be divorced from its spiritual element.

The keris as pusaka does not only legitimise power or a relationship, and it need not necessarily do either.

The essential element of the keris as pusaka is its binding power.

[David]

Originally Posted by fearn

Generally, the sword in the stone and Excalibur were different weapons. Is Disney the one that conflated them?

Well Disney didn't help, but i think it was Malory in his Le Morte d'Arthur.