A unique bronze barrel wall gun (doppelter Doppelhaken), Nuremberg, ca. 1515-20

Matchlock · 14th October 2009, 04:48 PM

The rest.

Matchlock · 14th October 2009, 05:04 PM

Hohenlohe-Langeburg is the very castle the wall gun in my collection came from. The one presented here today is very similar to mine, except for the somewhat longer muzzle section whose time of origin is documented and backed up by the date 1525 on the barrel, together with the Hohenlohe coat of arms.

Please note that the wall hook is incised with another example of a primitive numbering symbol, very similar to that on the hook of my piece.

Michael

cannonmn · 5th December 2011, 08:08 AM

Thanks for posting those fine weapons. I am always looking for similar items here in the USA but they don't surface very often. I thought perhaps you could help me with a question about the German Museum in Nuremberg. I'm sure you are familiar with A. Essenwein's two-volume work "QUELLEN ZUR GESCHICHTE DER FEUERWAFFEN" republished in 1969. I'd like very much to know if the Germanischen Museum still has the hackbut pictured in the plates volume, page B VII-e. There are two images on the lower right-side of page B VII identified on the page by letter "e." I would greatly like to obtain photographs of that particular item. Perhaps you have been there and have taken some photographs you could post or send to me? Does the museum still have that weapon? If you don't have photos of it, can you advise me how to go about getting them?

You seem to know a lot about hackbuts, so could you tell me where the hackbut pictured in page B VII (e) was made, if you have that information?

The reason I'm asking is that I have a hackbut nearly identical to that one which has the initials "J U R" engraved deeply near the breech. Do you know what that marking indicates? I have been trying for many years to identify that marking.

Thanks!

Matchlock · 5th December 2011, 08:36 PM

Hi John,

It has been so good to finally meet a third fellowman interested in the same stuff!

The haquebut you referred to, illustrated by a line drawing in Essenwein's basic work, is still preserved and on display in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg.

I'm attaching the pictures I have taken over two decades, plus a b/w photo taken by the museum about 100 years ago.

The piece is about 1.60 m long overall, the barrel length being ca. 1 m. The snap tinder-lock nailed to the stock at the right hand side of the breech may be contemporary. The stock is oak, painted black. The complete piece might weigh about 20 kg (German: doppelter Doppelhaken) and can be dated closely to ca. 1515-20. It was doubtlessly cast and stocked in Nuremberg.

The second piece on the images is dated 1534 on the bronze barrel, the present backsight being a Thirty Years War alteration (the original integral backsight at the base of the barrel removed).

In order to judge your haquebut, as well as the inscription, I would need to see overall images and close-ups.

Best,
Michael

cannonmn · 5th December 2011, 11:11 PM

Michael, thanks so much for the photos, that's a lot easier for me than having to deal with the museum.

I have this little slideshow of the hackbut, and if this is not adequate I will sit down and try to figure out how to post photos individually on this forum; of course I have separate url's for each one.

This hackbut was ordered by Ulrich von Schellenberg; you must be familiar with him because you like the Katzbalger, and Ulrich's sword in the KHM is one one of the finest I can imagine. I have a photo of it if anyone needs it but I have a feeling you all know that one.

The barrel is all I have, it weighs 36 lbs, is 36.75 inches long, and the bore measures 20.3mm, or 0.8 inches.

The barrel is bronze with a few iron inclusions including the chaplets for the core and one iron ring underneath (broken off.)

Decorations include flames, trefoils, and other unknown geometric shapes in patterns or rings around the barrel. The coat of arms is that of von Schellenberg.

Above the coat of arms are the letters which at first appear to be "I V R" but I am told by historians should be read as "J U R." I have thought of several possibilities for these letters but have not arrived on one that is foolproof yet.

Here's the slideshow, just mouse over the grid to see the photos.

There are several photos of a small round mark which appears to be struck, on the flash pan, and I thought it might be some kind of proof mark or maker's mark, but it is very indistinct, some simple figure, perhaps a bird in flight, in a circle?

Any insight you can give on this is most welcome.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b6...t=810e3bc0.pbw

Matchlock · 6th December 2011, 02:26 AM

Hi John,

I would have been much disappointed by myself, had I not recognized your barrel (remember it's not a complete haquebut) at first sight though the images on photobucket are tiny.

For all who wish to learn more on that item and its coat-of-arms, I post all the (unfortunately very small) images originally posted by the Springfield Arsenal because they were searching for information. I have to admit that was astonished to see the term of a the Late Gothic ornament quatrefoil misspelled as quatrafoil by a musem staff member ...

Your barrel with its unusually fine and profusely rich chiseled Early Renaissance decoration can be dated to ca. 1525-35. The originally swiveling bronze pan cover is now missing, just as on my Doppelhaken.

In order to be able and tell you more I would definitely need good-resolution images of the whole piece, as well as of all the details you questioned.

As a Medieval and Renaissance arms historian I can affirm the information given to you on how to interpret the three initials on your barrel. I am quite sure though they mark some later kind of arsenal inventory signature, and not that of the original owner.

In any case, this is a very fine - apart from obviously being preserved in excavated or salvaged condition - and espacially historically high-ranking item in early firearms history, so congratulations!

Do you have other similar items to match? I posted many items and overviews from my highly specialized collection here over the years, just see my threads.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 7th December 2011, 04:24 PM

[QUOTE=cannonmn] ... I have this little slideshow of the hackbut, and if this is not adequate I will sit down and try to figure out how to post photos individually on this forum; of course I have separate url's for each one...
QUOTE]

Yes, please do that, by all means.
You may read here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

If you need further help, just tell

cannonmn · 7th December 2011, 05:49 PM

Thanks Fernando. All the photos I have were posted in replies no. 16-18 above; I hope they will be satisfactory for your purposes.

Matchlock · 6th December 2011, 02:45 AM

More images.

Matchlock · 6th December 2011, 02:48 AM

And more.

14th October 2009, 04:48 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The rest. Attached Images

14th October 2009, 05:04 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Another, Dated 1525, at the Castle of the Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg, Franconia Hohenlohe-Langeburg is the very castle the wall gun in my collection came from. The one presented here today is very similar to mine, except for the somewhat longer muzzle section whose time of origin is documented and backed up by the date 1525 on the barrel, together with the Hohenlohe coat of arms. Please note that the wall hook is incised with another example of a primitive numbering symbol, very similar to that on the hook of my piece. Michael Attached Images

5th December 2011, 08:08 AM	#3
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Questions on hackbut Thanks for posting those fine weapons. I am always looking for similar items here in the USA but they don't surface very often. I thought perhaps you could help me with a question about the German Museum in Nuremberg. I'm sure you are familiar with A. Essenwein's two-volume work "QUELLEN ZUR GESCHICHTE DER FEUERWAFFEN" republished in 1969. I'd like very much to know if the Germanischen Museum still has the hackbut pictured in the plates volume, page B VII-e. There are two images on the lower right-side of page B VII identified on the page by letter "e." I would greatly like to obtain photographs of that particular item. Perhaps you have been there and have taken some photographs you could post or send to me? Does the museum still have that weapon? If you don't have photos of it, can you advise me how to go about getting them? You seem to know a lot about hackbuts, so could you tell me where the hackbut pictured in page B VII (e) was made, if you have that information? The reason I'm asking is that I have a hackbut nearly identical to that one which has the initials "J U R" engraved deeply near the breech. Do you know what that marking indicates? I have been trying for many years to identify that marking. Thanks!

5th December 2011, 08:36 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi John, It has been so good to finally meet a third fellowman interested in the same stuff! The haquebut you referred to, illustrated by a line drawing in Essenwein's basic work, is still preserved and on display in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg. I'm attaching the pictures I have taken over two decades, plus a b/w photo taken by the museum about 100 years ago. The piece is about 1.60 m long overall, the barrel length being ca. 1 m. The snap tinder-lock nailed to the stock at the right hand side of the breech may be contemporary. The stock is oak, painted black. The complete piece might weigh about 20 kg (German: doppelter Doppelhaken) and can be dated closely to ca. 1515-20. It was doubtlessly cast and stocked in Nuremberg. The second piece on the images is dated 1534 on the bronze barrel, the present backsight being a Thirty Years War alteration (the original integral backsight at the base of the barrel removed). In order to judge your haquebut, as well as the inscription, I would need to see overall images and close-ups. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 5th December 2011 at 08:56 PM.

5th December 2011, 11:11 PM	#5
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Thanks, and slideshow of the von Schellenberg hackbut Michael, thanks so much for the photos, that's a lot easier for me than having to deal with the museum. I have this little slideshow of the hackbut, and if this is not adequate I will sit down and try to figure out how to post photos individually on this forum; of course I have separate url's for each one. This hackbut was ordered by Ulrich von Schellenberg; you must be familiar with him because you like the Katzbalger, and Ulrich's sword in the KHM is one one of the finest I can imagine. I have a photo of it if anyone needs it but I have a feeling you all know that one. The barrel is all I have, it weighs 36 lbs, is 36.75 inches long, and the bore measures 20.3mm, or 0.8 inches. The barrel is bronze with a few iron inclusions including the chaplets for the core and one iron ring underneath (broken off.) Decorations include flames, trefoils, and other unknown geometric shapes in patterns or rings around the barrel. The coat of arms is that of von Schellenberg. Above the coat of arms are the letters which at first appear to be "I V R" but I am told by historians should be read as "J U R." I have thought of several possibilities for these letters but have not arrived on one that is foolproof yet. Here's the slideshow, just mouse over the grid to see the photos. There are several photos of a small round mark which appears to be struck, on the flash pan, and I thought it might be some kind of proof mark or maker's mark, but it is very indistinct, some simple figure, perhaps a bird in flight, in a circle? Any insight you can give on this is most welcome. http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b6...t=810e3bc0.pbw Last edited by cannonmn; 6th December 2011 at 12:26 PM.

6th December 2011, 02:26 AM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi John, I would have been much disappointed by myself, had I not recognized your barrel (remember it's not a complete haquebut) at first sight though the images on photobucket are tiny. For all who wish to learn more on that item and its coat-of-arms, I post all the (unfortunately very small) images originally posted by the Springfield Arsenal because they were searching for information. I have to admit that was astonished to see the term of a the Late Gothic ornament quatrefoil misspelled as quatrafoil by a musem staff member ... Your barrel with its unusually fine and profusely rich chiseled Early Renaissance decoration can be dated to ca. 1525-35. The originally swiveling bronze pan cover is now missing, just as on my Doppelhaken. In order to be able and tell you more I would definitely need good-resolution images of the whole piece, as well as of all the details you questioned. As a Medieval and Renaissance arms historian I can affirm the information given to you on how to interpret the three initials on your barrel. I am quite sure though they mark some later kind of arsenal inventory signature, and not that of the original owner. In any case, this is a very fine - apart from obviously being preserved in excavated or salvaged condition - and espacially historically high-ranking item in early firearms history, so congratulations! Do you have other similar items to match? I posted many items and overviews from my highly specialized collection here over the years, just see my threads. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th December 2011 at 02:57 AM.

7th December 2011, 04:24 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	[QUOTE=cannonmn] ... I have this little slideshow of the hackbut, and if this is not adequate I will sit down and try to figure out how to post photos individually on this forum; of course I have separate url's for each one... QUOTE] Yes, please do that, by all means. You may read here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631 If you need further help, just tell

7th December 2011, 05:49 PM	#8
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Thanks Fernando. All the photos I have were posted in replies no. 16-18 above; I hope they will be satisfactory for your purposes.

6th December 2011, 02:45 AM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More images. Attached Images

6th December 2011, 02:48 AM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	And more. Attached Images