Another What Have We Here

RSWORD · 14th May 2005, 09:55 PM

I actually wasn't referring to the entire sword being a Saif although you do find Saif with European blades of Polish/Hungarian origin. I was only speaking of the hilt only. Because of its peculiar shape I was suggesting the hilt, and only the hilt, might be a reworked handle from another sword(and in my thoughts, a Zanzibar Saif) that was matched with the existing guard and blade. The hilt just doesn't look right for a good ole Polish or Turkish Karabella hilt.

tom hyle · 15th May 2005, 10:55 AM

Why not? It looks like one to me. the tang band is really nothing out of the ordinary.....

ariel · 15th May 2005, 03:01 PM

At a first glance it does look like a typical karabela. However, the more I look, the more I agree with RSWORD. I have three S.Arabian swords, including a Zanzibar "nimcha" and all of them have the same "bolster" constructed as a wrap-around iron sheet. The langets also look Aarabian: flattened and circularly incised at the tips. Very much like my real nimcha (as per Elgood).
I do not think the hilt was reworked from a Moroccan/Zanzibar nimcha: their configuration includes a semicircular space under the pommel (for the pinkie) and would severely compromised the contour of the reworked handle.
I think it is the original contour, and the sword is an Arabian one.
Not Turkish and definitely not Balkan, Hungarian, Polish or otherwise Slavic.
We should call it a Saif for want of a better word.
As for Karabela, let's remember that one of the potential origins of the word is Iraqi city of Karbala, although it (IMHO) just as fallacious as "cara e bella" and "Karb'Allah". Most likely, it is derived from the name of a Turkish town Karabel, near Izmir.

Rick · 15th May 2005, 04:55 PM

Nimcha-esque hilt , wide curved blade ; perhaps a corsair's sword from N. Africa ?
Barbary pirates and all that .

tom hyle · 15th May 2005, 06:40 PM

The long ferule does look like a feature common on Arabian (per se) saifs, but are those not usually wire wraps? And do they not ordinarily have narrower grips? Does one see iron tang bands and overlays in Arabia? I think only brass or silver are usual? They are seen in iron in both Afghanistan and Caucases. Also, I have seen a similar feature at least once on an Afghan sword. The pommel shape is one I see a lot on knives from E European Moslems, but I have indeed also seen a similar shape on a type of variant kodme or flyssa. The shape as I've seen it on them is more angular, but otherwise similar, but this is identical to the European ones to my memory. It is possible it is a N African sword, or even Arabian, though that seems "off" to me; just not that it is a "nimcha", or, I think, any part of one. I still think it is E European etc. I do not see any indication that the grip is reworked. I think....?.....I don't know if the guards like this are trackable for region (though I'm trying to find out). If it had super skinny lagnets with parrabolic sides that'd be pretty Arabian. If it had diamond-section ridge lines to lagnets and quillons, that'd be pretty African. But this particular variety of the cross-shaped guard with shortish triangular lagnets seems fairly region-neutral for any markers I know what they mean; not to say it can't be IDd by the guard; but it's not helping me much. The square quillons may indeed be a mark for Arabia; I'd like to hear what Radu and Wolviex think of that though; they both seem to have seen a lot of European ones....

wolviex · 15th May 2005, 08:15 PM

I think that Arabian plot could be correct while I have many problems to qualify this sabre as Turkish or Polish. I was trying to find some features which are characteristic for these countries, but I didn't thought about other ones like Arabia - and this was my fault. The problem is that quillons, rivets, this metal aplication around handle - doesn't look familiar to me, only with small exception. Now after RSword's and Ariel's arguments, which I didn't thought about earlier, I'm ready to exlude any Polish origin. Unfortunately Tom, quillons as I said it, doesn't look familiar to those I saw in our collection, except this "triangular langnets" which happen indeed in Polish, Turkish and I belive, almost every Karabela sabre.

Ragards!

tom hyle · 15th May 2005, 09:42 PM

Yeah, they seem widespread, the triangular lagnets, and they may well occur in Arabia, too. The iron feruling piece is I think maybe a bit unusual for anywhere, though it sounds like several of us have seen somewhat similar things from a variety of regions....and if a pommel shape is in Moslem E Europe, and in N Africa, it wouldn't be surprising to see it at least once in a while in Arabia....I've recently become very curious about regional ID and origin for this style guard; I have no big knowledge; I have to study a lot more examples, obviously. I think it will be an important regional tracker if we figure it out, and it may be very simple or very hard; for me it is just an idea, and I may pursue it with a variety of vigor; I doubt much will occur soon. But it is on my mind, so I suspect I will have my eye on that particular feature of swords I see for a while.

ham · 17th May 2005, 06:19 PM

Gentlemen,

Oddly, there are two other examples of sabres of this type on eBay at the moment:

As forum members noted above this form is Arab, though its range is considerable-- have seen examples from Jerusalem to Jidda. They appear to be local copies of Ottoman swords, not surprising since these regions comprised an important part of the Ottoman Provinces for several centuries. They are usually identifiable by a less defined pommel-crest than the Ottoman, simpler, more rustic guard (as noted above) and characteristic Arab engraved motifs on the mounts. Too, blades tend to be European or in European style, on this type. Later examples have more aesthetic guards but the quillons tend to be quite short, and are generally chained to the pommel on one side, as the first eBay example shows. There is good example in STARA BRON by Dr. Z. Zygulski, p. 254, pl. 259. It is described as an Arab sabre of the 18th century.
The sword referred to in the opening thread showed iron mounts simply engraved, with a toothed edge to the ferrule and appliques; this is highly typical of matchlock muskets from Hyderabad which had a large Arab population for many centuries; more importantly, Hyderabad maintained trade ties with the Arabian Peninsula almost continuously to the late 19th century. Comparison with known Hyderabad sabres indicates close similarities in blade-type as well.

Sincerely,

Ham

17th May 2005, 06:19 PM	#8
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, Oddly, there are two other examples of sabres of this type on eBay at the moment: As forum members noted above this form is Arab, though its range is considerable-- have seen examples from Jerusalem to Jidda. They appear to be local copies of Ottoman swords, not surprising since these regions comprised an important part of the Ottoman Provinces for several centuries. They are usually identifiable by a less defined pommel-crest than the Ottoman, simpler, more rustic guard (as noted above) and characteristic Arab engraved motifs on the mounts. Too, blades tend to be European or in European style, on this type. Later examples have more aesthetic guards but the quillons tend to be quite short, and are generally chained to the pommel on one side, as the first eBay example shows. There is good example in STARA BRON by Dr. Z. Zygulski, p. 254, pl. 259. It is described as an Arab sabre of the 18th century. The sword referred to in the opening thread showed iron mounts simply engraved, with a toothed edge to the ferrule and appliques; this is highly typical of matchlock muskets from Hyderabad which had a large Arab population for many centuries; more importantly, Hyderabad maintained trade ties with the Arabian Peninsula almost continuously to the late 19th century. Comparison with known Hyderabad sabres indicates close similarities in blade-type as well. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by Ian; 17th May 2005 at 06:46 PM. Reason: Delete links and identifiers for current auctions

14th May 2005, 09:55 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I actually wasn't referring to the entire sword being a Saif although you do find Saif with European blades of Polish/Hungarian origin. I was only speaking of the hilt only. Because of its peculiar shape I was suggesting the hilt, and only the hilt, might be a reworked handle from another sword(and in my thoughts, a Zanzibar Saif) that was matched with the existing guard and blade. The hilt just doesn't look right for a good ole Polish or Turkish Karabella hilt.

15th May 2005, 10:55 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Why not? It looks like one to me. the tang band is really nothing out of the ordinary.....

15th May 2005, 03:01 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	At a first glance it does look like a typical karabela. However, the more I look, the more I agree with RSWORD. I have three S.Arabian swords, including a Zanzibar "nimcha" and all of them have the same "bolster" constructed as a wrap-around iron sheet. The langets also look Aarabian: flattened and circularly incised at the tips. Very much like my real nimcha (as per Elgood). I do not think the hilt was reworked from a Moroccan/Zanzibar nimcha: their configuration includes a semicircular space under the pommel (for the pinkie) and would severely compromised the contour of the reworked handle. I think it is the original contour, and the sword is an Arabian one. Not Turkish and definitely not Balkan, Hungarian, Polish or otherwise Slavic. We should call it a Saif for want of a better word. As for Karabela, let's remember that one of the potential origins of the word is Iraqi city of Karbala, although it (IMHO) just as fallacious as "cara e bella" and "Karb'Allah". Most likely, it is derived from the name of a Turkish town Karabel, near Izmir.

15th May 2005, 04:55 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Nimcha-esque hilt , wide curved blade ; perhaps a corsair's sword from N. Africa ? Barbary pirates and all that .

15th May 2005, 06:40 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The long ferule does look like a feature common on Arabian (per se) saifs, but are those not usually wire wraps? And do they not ordinarily have narrower grips? Does one see iron tang bands and overlays in Arabia? I think only brass or silver are usual? They are seen in iron in both Afghanistan and Caucases. Also, I have seen a similar feature at least once on an Afghan sword. The pommel shape is one I see a lot on knives from E European Moslems, but I have indeed also seen a similar shape on a type of variant kodme or flyssa. The shape as I've seen it on them is more angular, but otherwise similar, but this is identical to the European ones to my memory. It is possible it is a N African sword, or even Arabian, though that seems "off" to me; just not that it is a "nimcha", or, I think, any part of one. I still think it is E European etc. I do not see any indication that the grip is reworked. I think....?.....I don't know if the guards like this are trackable for region (though I'm trying to find out). If it had super skinny lagnets with parrabolic sides that'd be pretty Arabian. If it had diamond-section ridge lines to lagnets and quillons, that'd be pretty African. But this particular variety of the cross-shaped guard with shortish triangular lagnets seems fairly region-neutral for any markers I know what they mean; not to say it can't be IDd by the guard; but it's not helping me much. The square quillons may indeed be a mark for Arabia; I'd like to hear what Radu and Wolviex think of that though; they both seem to have seen a lot of European ones....

15th May 2005, 08:15 PM	#6
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I think that Arabian plot could be correct while I have many problems to qualify this sabre as Turkish or Polish. I was trying to find some features which are characteristic for these countries, but I didn't thought about other ones like Arabia - and this was my fault. The problem is that quillons, rivets, this metal aplication around handle - doesn't look familiar to me, only with small exception. Now after RSword's and Ariel's arguments, which I didn't thought about earlier, I'm ready to exlude any Polish origin. Unfortunately Tom, quillons as I said it, doesn't look familiar to those I saw in our collection, except this "triangular langnets" which happen indeed in Polish, Turkish and I belive, almost every Karabela sabre. Ragards!

15th May 2005, 09:42 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, they seem widespread, the triangular lagnets, and they may well occur in Arabia, too. The iron feruling piece is I think maybe a bit unusual for anywhere, though it sounds like several of us have seen somewhat similar things from a variety of regions....and if a pommel shape is in Moslem E Europe, and in N Africa, it wouldn't be surprising to see it at least once in a while in Arabia....I've recently become very curious about regional ID and origin for this style guard; I have no big knowledge; I have to study a lot more examples, obviously. I think it will be an important regional tracker if we figure it out, and it may be very simple or very hard; for me it is just an idea, and I may pursue it with a variety of vigor; I doubt much will occur soon. But it is on my mind, so I suspect I will have my eye on that particular feature of swords I see for a while.