Higher education pays off!

[Rick]

[QUOTE=LOUIEBLADES]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Rick We all collect swords,daggers,spears and clubs so if this were to happen to a forum member don't you think it could have been a similar outcome? One of the rare pitfalls of collecting and studying weapons I would think?

Always remember these words:
" I was in fear for my life "

[Rich]

"samurai sword" is the media general term for any style Japanese sword. It might have been a Walmart wall hanger for all we know. Personally I prefer a 357.

Rich

[fearn]

I'm of a couple of minds on this. Part of me just wants to ask for thread to be locked (sorry Ariel), part wants to talk it out.

The big issue here is about self defense. Here's the Maryland Self defense law, according to Wikipedia.

Here are a couple of relevant paragraphs, snipped from said article (and remember, I'm not a lawyer).

Self-Defense (MPJI-Cr 5:07)
Self-defense is a defense, and the defendant must be found not guilty if all of the following three factors are present:

1) The defendant actually believed that <he> <she> was in immediate and imminent danger of bodily harm.
2) The defendant's belief was reasonable.
3) The defendant used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend <himself> <herself> in light of the threatenend or actual harm.
<Deadly-force is that amount of force reasonably calculated to cause death or serious bodily harm. If the defendant is found to have used deadly-force, it must be decided whether the use of deadly-force was reasonable. Deadly-force is reasonable if the defendant actually had a reasonable belief that the aggressor's force was or would be deadly and that the defendant needed a deadly-force response.>

<In addition, before using deadly-force, the defendant is required to make all reasonable effort to retreat. The defendant does not have to retreat if the defendant was in <his> <her> home, retreat was unsafe, the avenue of retreat was unknown to the defendant, the defendant was being robbed, the defendant was lawfully arresting the victim. If the defendant was found to have not used deadly-force, then the defendant had no duty to retreat.>

Defense of Habitation - Deadly Force (MPJI-Cr 5:02)
Defense of one's home is a defense, and the defendant must be found not guilty if all of the following three factors are present:

1) The defendant actually believed that (victim) was committing <was just about to commit> the crime of (crime) in <at> the defendant's home.
2) The defendant's belief was reasonable.
3) The defendant used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend against the conduct of (victim).


It's that "no more force than was reasonably necessary" clause that's keeping the sheriffs busy.

For example: did the student realize that he could have used his sword as a bludgeon? I suspect the law is different depending on whether he was trained in how to use that sword, or whether he was just lashing out, following the examples he'd seen in movies?

Conversely, the student might have tried to simply slash the burglar, and the burglar did the instinctive thing of trying to block the sword with his arm, resulting in a severed wrist and bleed-out.

I think the bottom line for all of us is to make sure that our self-defense activities are well within the laws. As Rick noted, if you don't have "I was afraid for my life" tattoed inside your eyelids, you might want to engrave it on the hilt of the sword by your bed.

Best,

F

[Lew]

Fearn

We will have to all have a questionare ready for the burglar when breaks in please anwser the following are you here only to rob? Rob and rape? Rob rape and murder. Sorry but retreating upstairs into a locked room and hope this guy was not armed and and looking to kill me is silly. There was a case my friend told me about in Illinois where this guy broke into this man home 2am inthe morning his wife and kids were upstairs so he grabbed his handgun and as he was walking down the stairs the buglar was coming up and had a crowbar in his hand so the homeowner shot and killed the guy with the crow bar . The police ended up arresting him because he did not try to retreat.

[fearn]

Hi Louie,

Here's an example. Let's say I have a large, sharp kukri near my bed. An unarmed burglar breaks in. I confront him with the bare blade. He doesn't run.

I

A) hit him hard with the flat or spine of the blade, and if he doesn't get the idea, cut him as hard as I can with the edge on the backswing, or

B) go for an immediate kill.

Depends on the situation. The one I train is A), because the state where I live doesn't let me kill burglars for being in my house, although it lets me use lethal self defense if I'm in fear for my life. That fear is the standard. If you're afraid, you're allowed to act on that fear.

Personally, I'd rather knock burglar-dude down the stairs and let the police make him walk off on two broken ankles. Saves me the angst and the cleanup bills.

That's the problem with this case. In Maryland, case-law supports the student, not statue law, and we don't know the circumstances of the scuffle. If he went after the burglar with his sword, and all the cuts on the burglar are defensive, the student commited manslaughter, not self-defense.

We just don't know what happened, despite (or perhaps because of) all the publicity this has garnered.

I'm not saying retreat, what I'm saying is know what you're allowed to do legally, and make sure your first line of defense follows the law. What you do after that is up to you.

Best,

F

[asomotif]

Here in the Netherlands you are also supposed to retreat if possible.
So even in your own house retreat should be the best option.

Well lets just hope it will not happen.
A large part of my edged weapons is mandau's and personally I don't find them very handy, especially indoors they are not my weapon of choice

Maybe I should get myself a nice Wakizashi

[t_c]

A sad story all around: An unnecessary (and apparently unintentional) death and possibly a ruined future. A diploma from John Hopkins would have served the student a lot better then felon status in the US job market. A teacher of mine once said (and I'm inclined to agree) "There is no such thing as self-defense with a knife" (or sword for that matter). Edged weapons are not tools for restraint or submission. I fear a jury will come to the same conclusion.

If I ever have an unexpected visitor I hope I have the clarity and calm to remember my friend's advice: "offer them a cup of tea." I know, crazy Buddhists, but I think he might be on to something....

[ariel]

As a matter of fact, some of the members of this Forum are, in fact, lawyers. They may explain to all of us salient points of the law (US, of course).
All of us have sharp and pointy things in our houses and many ( I would think most) do not have firearms: I do not.
Thus, if, and when, we are confronted with a similar situation, tulwars, koras and kindjals are the only means we have to defend ourselves and our families. My understanding, in the US, one does not have to retreat from an armed intruder into our house, especially at night.
When can we use deadly force? What are the legal limits we are not allowed to cross? What circumstances allow us to claim legitimate self-defense and prevail?

I ain't no joking, folks.

[Lew]

[QUOTE=fearn]Hi Louie,

Here's an example. Let's say I have a large, sharp kukri near my bed. An unarmed burglar breaks in. I confront him with the bare blade. He doesn't run.

I

A) hit him hard with the flat or spine of the blade, and if he doesn't get the idea, cut him as hard as I can with the edge on the backswing, or

B) go for an immediate kill.

Depends on the situation. The one I train is A), because the state where I live doesn't let me kill burglars for being in my house, although it lets me use lethal self defense if I'm in fear for my life. That fear is the standard. If you're afraid, you're allowed to act on that fear.

Fearn

If he is in your bedroom there is no where for you to retreat or if you find him in your 13 year old daughters room Btw how would you know if he is unarmed could have a knife or a gun tucked away in his pants I think the police would understand? When that adreneline kicks in at 2am don't think you would be standing there scratching your head thinking what are those Maryland state laws again? a policeman who trained people in the deadly arts once told me better judged by twelve than carried by six. So if you fear for your life and you disable him with a cut its self defense if you keep hacking at him its murder nothing is cut and dry here it all depends on the situation at that instant.

[KuKulzA28]

I don't think that it's a show of hubris and bravado to point out that you would prefer to confront the criminal rather than retreat further into your own home and hope for a merciful crime. If he stole your TV, not THAT bad... but like others have pointed out, what if he's after more than a valuable item or two? The factors and conditions go on and on. The law may want you to hide and wait to be rescued. Protecting you, your loved ones, and your property may demand that you take immediate and decisive action. I too have heard the saying "better judged by twelve than carried by six" and I definitely agree with it.

It's not a "I would do this if", it's more an issue of law and the right to live and live safely. The law is there for you usually... sometimes it isn't. The government is bigger than you... you won that fight but lost that "war" so to speak... I feel sorry for the student, I bet he was just doing what he thought necessary. Perhaps if he was a single father with a little girl or a young woman he might get into less or no trouble. Such is law.

[Andrew]

Off Topic, and I don't feel much like writing a legal treatise about US law here.