Indian Arab Influenced Jambiya and Lots of Questions

TVV · 16th September 2009, 04:40 PM

Thank you for the responses!

Stu,
I am aware of the threads on Gene's jambiya. I can only dream of matching his restoration skills. There are some other examples in Elgood and in the Oriental Arms Sold section. However, I am always interested and happy to receive the opinion of this forum's knowledgeable members.

Alex,
The hilt is most certainly cast and I was wondering the same - if it is just a casting flaw rather than subsequent damage. I guess for now I should just monitor it and if it stays stable, then I will know it is a casting defect.

Regards,
Teodor

Atlantia · 16th September 2009, 06:45 PM

Hi Teodor,

Firstly let me say what a beautiful dagger you've got! Many congratualtions there on such a lucky find.

Bronze/Brass? Often very difficult to distinguish as both are copper alloys. From looking at your dagger, you have a mixture of copper alloys used in the hilt/scabbard. If you look at the end scabbard mount (Chape?) the lion (?) head looks rather gold and 'brassy' and seems to be cast then brazed to the chape which looks to have been made from sheets of a mostly copper metal which has been hammered and pierced.
The obvious differences made me wonder if (like mine) you dagger was once gilded or plated, but I cant see any traces even in the recesses?
The handle as Alex noted looks cast, possibly the fine detail added (chiseled in afterwards).
It would be unusual for bronze-rot/bronze disease to be active enough on a piece of this age to be leaving a hole, so I would think as Aex said that its much more likely a casting defect/blow hole.
If you look very closely at the 'damage' and can see a powdery verdigris coloured resudue over corrosion pitting then I guess it could be something sinister, but I'd doubt it.

Right! Backa gain.
I do like the choice of decoration, foliage and animals! Especially the rather monstrous lionhead!
Here is a rather nice heavy bronze tray of similar artistry:

TVV · 16th September 2009, 07:42 PM

Thank you Gene,

Nice tray, where the decoration is similar, but of higher workmanship than the one on my jambiya, where it is a little rougher.

I will make a better picture of the area in question tonight. I think I see some residue there, which might be from corrosion, or it might be left over from polishing paste.

Best regards,
Teodor

TVV · 17th September 2009, 03:05 AM

Here is a close-up of the damaged area (assuming it is damaged and not a casting flow). There is a residue there, as can be clearly seen, and not just there actually, but over the entire hilt. Is it the dreaded "disease", or is it just residue from polishing paste?

spiral · 17th September 2009, 09:10 AM

Nice jambiya, When I was about 20 I worked in a foundry for 9 months & would say its just a casting flaw, either from a air bubble or piece of loose sand in the mould.

Spiral

Atlantia · 17th September 2009, 11:03 AM

Its a lovely hilt, I also don't think we are seeing rot here, just casting flaws. Possibly exposed when the finishing detail was cut into it after casting.
Casting flaws are very common, as Spiral says, bubbles, sand grains, even impurities in the alloy etc.
Often the maker will re-fill these then reinstate the detail, and sometimes the 'plugs' come loose over time.

TVV · 17th September 2009, 04:49 PM

Thank you guys, as my knowledge of alloys and casting is low to non-existant, I was really worried there. Your posts were exactly what I wanted to read - I feel much relieved now.
Teodor

16th September 2009, 06:45 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Teodor, Firstly let me say what a beautiful dagger you've got! Many congratualtions there on such a lucky find. Bronze/Brass? Often very difficult to distinguish as both are copper alloys. From looking at your dagger, you have a mixture of copper alloys used in the hilt/scabbard. If you look at the end scabbard mount (Chape?) the lion (?) head looks rather gold and 'brassy' and seems to be cast then brazed to the chape which looks to have been made from sheets of a mostly copper metal which has been hammered and pierced. The obvious differences made me wonder if (like mine) you dagger was once gilded or plated, but I cant see any traces even in the recesses? The handle as Alex noted looks cast, possibly the fine detail added (chiseled in afterwards). It would be unusual for bronze-rot/bronze disease to be active enough on a piece of this age to be leaving a hole, so I would think as Aex said that its much more likely a casting defect/blow hole. If you look very closely at the 'damage' and can see a powdery verdigris coloured resudue over corrosion pitting then I guess it could be something sinister, but I'd doubt it. Right! Backa gain. I do like the choice of decoration, foliage and animals! Especially the rather monstrous lionhead! Here is a rather nice heavy bronze tray of similar artistry: Last edited by Atlantia; 16th September 2009 at 07:22 PM.

17th September 2009, 03:05 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Here is a close-up of the damaged area (assuming it is damaged and not a casting flow). There is a residue there, as can be clearly seen, and not just there actually, but over the entire hilt. Is it the dreaded "disease", or is it just residue from polishing paste? Attached Images

16th September 2009, 04:40 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Thank you for the responses! Stu, I am aware of the threads on Gene's jambiya. I can only dream of matching his restoration skills. There are some other examples in Elgood and in the Oriental Arms Sold section. However, I am always interested and happy to receive the opinion of this forum's knowledgeable members. Alex, The hilt is most certainly cast and I was wondering the same - if it is just a casting flaw rather than subsequent damage. I guess for now I should just monitor it and if it stays stable, then I will know it is a casting defect. Regards, Teodor

16th September 2009, 07:42 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Thank you Gene, Nice tray, where the decoration is similar, but of higher workmanship than the one on my jambiya, where it is a little rougher. I will make a better picture of the area in question tonight. I think I see some residue there, which might be from corrosion, or it might be left over from polishing paste. Best regards, Teodor

17th September 2009, 09:10 AM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Nice jambiya, When I was about 20 I worked in a foundry for 9 months & would say its just a casting flaw, either from a air bubble or piece of loose sand in the mould. Spiral

17th September 2009, 11:03 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Its a lovely hilt, I also don't think we are seeing rot here, just casting flaws. Possibly exposed when the finishing detail was cut into it after casting. Casting flaws are very common, as Spiral says, bubbles, sand grains, even impurities in the alloy etc. Often the maker will re-fill these then reinstate the detail, and sometimes the 'plugs' come loose over time.

17th September 2009, 04:49 PM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Thank you guys, as my knowledge of alloys and casting is low to non-existant, I was really worried there. Your posts were exactly what I wanted to read - I feel much relieved now. Teodor