Tulwar Hilt Types

ALEX · 11th September 2009, 09:16 PM

Jens,
The blade is only chiselled, it has no inlays. The handle MAY not be original to the blade, and later replacement.
You are right - it'd be an enormous academic undertaking to be able to relay geometrical decorations to geographical locations. I know of only one person who's able to come close:-)

Jens Nordlunde · 11th September 2009, 09:45 PM

Alex,

I find the hilt Ariel is showing very interesting. It is from Rajasthan, but it is made of copper - and this is interesting as few hilts made of copper comes from this area.

Long ago I thought that certain flowers could be related to certain areas – now I am not so sure any more, unless if you regard the areas as very big one – like Rajasthan. In some parts some flowers will be seen more often than in other areas, and the poppy seems to be very popular. However they may be made in different ways, so they can be difficult to recognise. what I think we should be looking for is a connection between the flowers/decoration and what it meant to the people at the time.

The hilt forms is almost the same, some hilts were traded and some looted, while others may have been made in a style different from what was common in that part of the country – this does not make it any easier. But if we collectors try long and hard enough, I believe that one day one of us will find a key to, at least some of the tilts.

Jens

ariel · 13th September 2009, 04:09 AM

Jens, many thanks for your input. I am not a dedicated collector of Indian swords, but could not resist this one ( moreover, when none of you, guys, seemed to jump into the fray :-)): this is the first and only copper-hilted tulwar I've seen ever.
Elgood writes that contact with iron seemed to pollute hands of Brahmins ( spiritually, of course) and heavy silvering and/or gilding was the way around the problem. Also, red copper was spiritually connected with fighting fervor.
Here we had a double whammy: gilded copper. Must have been viewed as totally "kosher" from the religious point of view:-) And a wootz blade must have been a nice cherry on top....
Any thoughts on age?

Rick · 13th September 2009, 10:33 PM

This might explain the (formerly) fully silver clad handle on my kirach .
Thanks Ariel .

sabertasche · 15th September 2009, 07:20 AM

Hi all, I'm here in awe of all the wonderful discussion re talwar hilt forms. Forgive me for being absent, the usual work stuff has limited my abilities to participate. It will take me some time to digest all the info so many of you have contributed.

Jens, you asked if the pommel edge was roped and yes it is although it is not raised as if it was a separately applied decoration.

The flat pommel disked sword is very fine crystaline wooze, which I plan to lightly clean. It appears that based on Jen's observations it may be Sikh but I believe the key is in understanding the decorative components in context with the hilt form. This will take a few more books and experience in Indian art motifs. Of the bibliography that Jim mentioned, I only have #s 1 and 4. Perhaps I should invest in a book rather than blade?

I have no history on any of my talwars, #1 was bought because out of the 50-100 talwars to could choose from, it was the only one with a straight blade and decent scabbard. #2 was bought from the same source because the hilt was nicer than any others. There had to be at least 100 talwars to choose from, all covered in cosmolene, all for about $20.00 each - and we bought....2

I guess at the time I didn't what to get my hands dirty

#3 I paid very, very little for, it truely is a magnificent sword. The blade talks to me, it's quality is amazing especially when compared to the vast majority of blades that you see. If only I could understand what it is trying to tell me.

Cheers,

Greg

Gavin Nugent · 11th July 2010, 07:06 AM

better late than never, as promised, I will start listing a number of varients I have images of.

One to start.

Gav

Gavin Nugent · 11th July 2010, 09:34 AM

Some more, others to follow with some discussion when time permits.

Gav

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2012, 09:39 PM

Ariel,
You are a very patient man, waiting so long time for an answer - sorry.
The age of you copper hilt is, to my opinion, 17th to early 18th century.
Sorry that you had to wait so long for the answer.
Jens

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th July 2013, 09:27 PM

Salaams All ~ Someone mentioned a classic thread on Tulvars and looking back through the Forum library I think the basis for that is here... and to give this one a bump... A great thread !

I have a humble Tulvar ... or two... the last picture shows Ethiopian blades(German) mounted on Tulvar hilts.

I hope Jens can also steer us on this one ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th July 2013, 09:51 PM

Yes it is an interesting thread, but let me round it up with this.
Many millions of hilts were made over centuries - how many have we left?
Most of the hilts were very plane, while others were nicely made and also nicely decorated.
How many of the very plane hilts has survived? Some, but not many, or if they have, they are late - the older ones would have been melted down to make new hilts/blades.
New hilts are made, and made to look old, either by chemicals or but burrying them in cow dung. Some even have the original, thin, decoration removed, and a new gold koftgari decoration applied - all very nice, but not for a collector.
Many buys from pictures only, and cant see through this - what a pity.
Jens
PS. Here is a better picture of the tulwar hilt Ibrahiim showed - I hope it is all right that I lightened it a bit?

13th September 2009, 10:33 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	This might explain the (formerly) fully silver clad handle on my kirach . Thanks Ariel . Attached Images

11th July 2010, 07:06 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	As promised. better late than never, as promised, I will start listing a number of varients I have images of. One to start. Gav Attached Images

11th July 2010, 09:34 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Some more Some more, others to follow with some discussion when time permits. Gav Attached Images

30th July 2013, 09:27 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All ~ Someone mentioned a classic thread on Tulvars and looking back through the Forum library I think the basis for that is here... and to give this one a bump... A great thread ! I have a humble Tulvar ... or two... the last picture shows Ethiopian blades(German) mounted on Tulvar hilts. I hope Jens can also steer us on this one ... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 30th July 2013 at 10:31 PM.

30th July 2013, 09:51 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes it is an interesting thread, but let me round it up with this. Many millions of hilts were made over centuries - how many have we left? Most of the hilts were very plane, while others were nicely made and also nicely decorated. How many of the very plane hilts has survived? Some, but not many, or if they have, they are late - the older ones would have been melted down to make new hilts/blades. New hilts are made, and made to look old, either by chemicals or but burrying them in cow dung. Some even have the original, thin, decoration removed, and a new gold koftgari decoration applied - all very nice, but not for a collector. Many buys from pictures only, and cant see through this - what a pity. Jens PS. Here is a better picture of the tulwar hilt Ibrahiim showed - I hope it is all right that I lightened it a bit? Attached Images

11th September 2009, 09:16 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Jens, The blade is only chiselled, it has no inlays. The handle MAY not be original to the blade, and later replacement. You are right - it'd be an enormous academic undertaking to be able to relay geometrical decorations to geographical locations. I know of only one person who's able to come close:-)

11th September 2009, 09:45 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alex, I find the hilt Ariel is showing very interesting. It is from Rajasthan, but it is made of copper - and this is interesting as few hilts made of copper comes from this area. Long ago I thought that certain flowers could be related to certain areas – now I am not so sure any more, unless if you regard the areas as very big one – like Rajasthan. In some parts some flowers will be seen more often than in other areas, and the poppy seems to be very popular. However they may be made in different ways, so they can be difficult to recognise. what I think we should be looking for is a connection between the flowers/decoration and what it meant to the people at the time. The hilt forms is almost the same, some hilts were traded and some looted, while others may have been made in a style different from what was common in that part of the country – this does not make it any easier. But if we collectors try long and hard enough, I believe that one day one of us will find a key to, at least some of the tilts. Jens

13th September 2009, 04:09 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, many thanks for your input. I am not a dedicated collector of Indian swords, but could not resist this one ( moreover, when none of you, guys, seemed to jump into the fray :-)): this is the first and only copper-hilted tulwar I've seen ever. Elgood writes that contact with iron seemed to pollute hands of Brahmins ( spiritually, of course) and heavy silvering and/or gilding was the way around the problem. Also, red copper was spiritually connected with fighting fervor. Here we had a double whammy: gilded copper. Must have been viewed as totally "kosher" from the religious point of view:-) And a wootz blade must have been a nice cherry on top.... Any thoughts on age?

15th September 2009, 07:20 AM	#5
sabertasche Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 149	Hi all, I'm here in awe of all the wonderful discussion re talwar hilt forms. Forgive me for being absent, the usual work stuff has limited my abilities to participate. It will take me some time to digest all the info so many of you have contributed. Jens, you asked if the pommel edge was roped and yes it is although it is not raised as if it was a separately applied decoration. The flat pommel disked sword is very fine crystaline wooze, which I plan to lightly clean. It appears that based on Jen's observations it may be Sikh but I believe the key is in understanding the decorative components in context with the hilt form. This will take a few more books and experience in Indian art motifs. Of the bibliography that Jim mentioned, I only have #s 1 and 4. Perhaps I should invest in a book rather than blade? I have no history on any of my talwars, #1 was bought because out of the 50-100 talwars to could choose from, it was the only one with a straight blade and decent scabbard. #2 was bought from the same source because the hilt was nicer than any others. There had to be at least 100 talwars to choose from, all covered in cosmolene, all for about $20.00 each - and we bought....2 I guess at the time I didn't what to get my hands dirty #3 I paid very, very little for, it truely is a magnificent sword. The blade talks to me, it's quality is amazing especially when compared to the vast majority of blades that you see. If only I could understand what it is trying to tell me. Cheers, Greg

15th February 2012, 09:39 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, You are a very patient man, waiting so long time for an answer - sorry. The age of you copper hilt is, to my opinion, 17th to early 18th century. Sorry that you had to wait so long for the answer. Jens