Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching?

kulbuntet · 15th August 2009, 07:18 PM

I do hsare your opinion about that diffrent blades (pamor technices+material) need diffent aproach. Yes a new blade with pamor neckel/nickel/titanium or something that is pure. Needs a more stong solution, now since that AsS or As2S3 do not solve as good than As2O3(20Gr/l) And trioxide is wtronger to react.. beter to use trioxide. But with old blades as pamor Luwu and Pramamban beter to use less strong solution, realgar does the job good engouh. Just need to give it more time. My experience with realgar is that the solution does need time too to get on strenght.

here some pic of my just finished blade. Hope the pice are good enough

notice the bath on the left.

BTW, this is ther Yogja Keris with the square peksi!

David · 15th August 2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

I do hsare your opinion about that diffrent blades (pamor technices+material) need diffent aproach. Yes a new blade with pamor neckel/nickel/titanium or something that is pure. Needs a more stong solution, now since that AsS or As2S3 do not solve as good than As2O3(20Gr/l) And trioxide is wtronger to react.. beter to use trioxide. But with old blades as pamor Luwu and Pramamban beter to use less strong solution, realgar does the job good engouh. Just need to give it more time.

Just a thought. Can't the strength of the solution be adjusted based on the amount of arsenic used in the solution. As2O3 is stronger than realgar, but if you use less in your solution than your solution should be weaker, right?
Thanks for showing us part of your process Michel. I like your home made staining trough. Frankly i am picking up a tip or two from all these different methods which i believe will be helpful to my process in the end.

kulbuntet · 15th August 2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Just a thought. Can't the strength of the solution be adjusted based on the amount of arsenic used in the solution. As2O3 is stronger than realgar, but if you use less in your solution than your solution should be weaker, right?
Thanks for showing us part of your process Michel. I like your home made staining trough. Frankly i am picking up a tip or two from all these different methods which i believe will be helpful to my process in the end.

Hi David,

Yes of coarse, your thinking is correct. When i make a solution i make it as a stock solution... this means as strong as it can get and put a bit extra in it, to lay on botom of the yar( see pic one left top). Let it stand for a year. As you can see on the pic, my bath is almost black coloured. It was a year ago just yellowish (lime juice colour). The warangan need to solve slowly, because i must be extraced from the mineral.

These stock solutions are so strong that even with colder temperature it wil darken a blade, but not with good results.. when you want to do some work.. just dillute it a bit, when stil to stong a bit more.. dilluting a solution is posible and wil keep the solution good to go.. but when to weak.. put more in.. normal.. but before it wil work.. one year later. The use of trioxid is easy because it wil work when you make it.. because the faster solving of the salt (As2O3).

Another tip!, i dont trow away anny thing... same for the waste water. It holds a bit or warangan, so i recycle it it it gets stronger, than it can be used to dillute or vaporised bath. Or for slow washing realy old blades.

A. G. Maisey · 16th August 2009, 02:47 AM

A.--- An old Madura blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1965.

B.--- An old Sumatra blade, stained in about 1960 with sulphur, salt, rice water.

C.--- An old Bali blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1962; this blade was extremely corroded and had deteriorated badly prior to the clean and stain.

D.--- An old South Sumatra blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1974.

E.--- An old Surakarta blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1978; this blade was purchased from an English dealer and is attributed to Wirasukadgo.

F.--- An old Bali/Lombok blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1970.

G.--- An old Peninsular Bugis blade, stained with warangan in Jogjakarta in 1972 by Romo Murdo; this was a "quick fix" stain, not a proper clean and stain.

H.--- An old Jawa blade (Senopaten), stained with warangan in Jogjakarta in 1978; this is a standard commercial stain.

I.--- A keris made by Empu Suparman in 1982 and stained by him using warangan.

J.--- My first attempt at pamor in a keris blade, made in 1980 before I was taught by Pak Parman, this stain was done with arsenic trioxide.

K.--- My first attempt at pamor in a dagger blade, made in 1980, this blade is the same construction as a keris, with a steel core and pamor of nickel and iron on its faces, the blade has not been stained but only etched with dilute hydrochloric acid.

K1.--- Close up of K.

L.--- A dagger of damascus which I made in about 1985, this is made of wrought iron and 01 steel, it was etched with hydrochloric acid, stained with ferric chloride, then washed with white wine vinegar.

L1.--- Close up of L1.

Looks like they've been posted here in a very disordered fashion, guess you'll just have to look for the titles.

A. G. Maisey · 16th August 2009, 02:50 AM

I had 14 pics but could only upload 12 at a time, so here are the las two:-

L.--- A dagger of damascus which I made in about 1985, this is made of wrought iron and 01 steel, it was etched with hydrochloric acid, stained with ferric chloride, then washed with white wine vinegar.

L1.--- Close up of L1.

David · 16th August 2009, 04:50 AM

Thank you so much for this presentation Alan.
Just a bit off topic because it is not a keris, but i really like the design of this last blade you posted. Very eloquent.

A. G. Maisey · 16th August 2009, 05:59 AM

Thanks David. It is one of the better things I've done.

I'm not so sure that this is off-topic, because what we're talking about is blade staining, and I believe that this encompasses more than just keris and arsenic. I've stained many different types of materials, and I've used many different substances to achieve the stains. The wider one's experience the more that experience can contribute towards the achievement of excellence in just one medium.

What I've tried to do with these pics is to show some of the variations that can occur.

Here is a side view of that damascus dagger.

15th August 2009, 07:18 PM	#1
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	I do hsare your opinion about that diffrent blades (pamor technices+material) need diffent aproach. Yes a new blade with pamor neckel/nickel/titanium or something that is pure. Needs a more stong solution, now since that AsS or As2S3 do not solve as good than As2O3(20Gr/l) And trioxide is wtronger to react.. beter to use trioxide. But with old blades as pamor Luwu and Pramamban beter to use less strong solution, realgar does the job good engouh. Just need to give it more time. My experience with realgar is that the solution does need time too to get on strenght. here some pic of my just finished blade. Hope the pice are good enough notice the bath on the left. BTW, this is ther Yogja Keris with the square peksi! Last edited by kulbuntet; 16th August 2009 at 01:32 AM.

16th August 2009, 02:47 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	A.--- An old Madura blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1965. B.--- An old Sumatra blade, stained in about 1960 with sulphur, salt, rice water. C.--- An old Bali blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1962; this blade was extremely corroded and had deteriorated badly prior to the clean and stain. D.--- An old South Sumatra blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1974. E.--- An old Surakarta blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1978; this blade was purchased from an English dealer and is attributed to Wirasukadgo. F.--- An old Bali/Lombok blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1970. G.--- An old Peninsular Bugis blade, stained with warangan in Jogjakarta in 1972 by Romo Murdo; this was a "quick fix" stain, not a proper clean and stain. H.--- An old Jawa blade (Senopaten), stained with warangan in Jogjakarta in 1978; this is a standard commercial stain. I.--- A keris made by Empu Suparman in 1982 and stained by him using warangan. J.--- My first attempt at pamor in a keris blade, made in 1980 before I was taught by Pak Parman, this stain was done with arsenic trioxide. K.--- My first attempt at pamor in a dagger blade, made in 1980, this blade is the same construction as a keris, with a steel core and pamor of nickel and iron on its faces, the blade has not been stained but only etched with dilute hydrochloric acid. K1.--- Close up of K. L.--- A dagger of damascus which I made in about 1985, this is made of wrought iron and 01 steel, it was etched with hydrochloric acid, stained with ferric chloride, then washed with white wine vinegar. L1.--- Close up of L1. Looks like they've been posted here in a very disordered fashion, guess you'll just have to look for the titles. Attached Images

16th August 2009, 02:50 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	I had 14 pics but could only upload 12 at a time, so here are the las two:- L.--- A dagger of damascus which I made in about 1985, this is made of wrought iron and 01 steel, it was etched with hydrochloric acid, stained with ferric chloride, then washed with white wine vinegar. L1.--- Close up of L1. Attached Images

16th August 2009, 05:59 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Thanks David. It is one of the better things I've done. I'm not so sure that this is off-topic, because what we're talking about is blade staining, and I believe that this encompasses more than just keris and arsenic. I've stained many different types of materials, and I've used many different substances to achieve the stains. The wider one's experience the more that experience can contribute towards the achievement of excellence in just one medium. What I've tried to do with these pics is to show some of the variations that can occur. Here is a side view of that damascus dagger. Attached Images

16th August 2009, 04:50 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thank you so much for this presentation Alan. Just a bit off topic because it is not a keris, but i really like the design of this last blade you posted. Very eloquent.