Handgonne from Otepaa. Estonia

Matchlock · 10th August 2009, 02:10 PM

Hi Spiridonov,

I have taken my time and pondered thoroughly over the Otepää handgun.

1. Even if it was made in the late 14th century - which I doubt very much - it could not be called the world's oldest handgun. This attribute is undoubtedly linked to the Loshult gun which closely resembles the earliest illustration of a gun found in the de Milemete manuscript, Christ Church, Oxford, which is dated 1326. The Loshult gun should be dated ca. 1350.

2. As discussed at large in earlier posts, the presence of hooks cannot be proven before the 1430's.

3. The presence of pan like mouldings around the touch hole seems to be an invention of the second half of the 15th century.

4. Although the Otepää gun is in heavily damaged condition now I should give a tentative date of ca. 1440-50 for it, with the longitudinal pan moulding being a later working addition.

Michael

Spiridonov · 10th August 2009, 03:40 PM

thank you for answear

Spiridonov · 9th November 2011, 06:56 PM

I am still thinking about this barrel. You have given a tentative date as 1440-50. So how he was able to get under the ruins if castle has been destroyed in 1396 year?...

Matchlock · 10th November 2011, 02:06 PM

Hi Alexander,

I guess this was for a similar same reason as the famous Tannenberg gun was found in a well belonging to the ruins of a castle destroyed in 1399.

Just because a certain place was destroyed in a certain year, the possibility that some decades later somebody came by those ruins and probably tried to explore them cannot be a priori excluded. Then it might have been the case that our visitor either stumbled and fell, the handgonne falling deep down under the ruins, or that he was surprised by somebody else and lost his gun in combat.

Anyway, there is no doubt that both the Tannenberg gun and the Otepää gun were actually not made before the first half of the 15th century, ca. 1420-30 by the earliest, as I pointed out in a former post. So how it came they were both found between earlier ruins is completely left to speculation - dissatisfying as it may be.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 22nd January 2012, 09:31 PM

Weapons in Otepaa castle
http://michael-engel.io.ua/album323940

cannonmn · 23rd January 2012, 12:15 AM

Are there more photos of the excavated piece than the one I see? I'd need many more photos, close up, to get an idea of the beast under consideration. I wouldn't have such a big problem with it if it only had one departure from "conventional" contemporary gun design, but the fact that it has several significant differences causes its identification as any kind of a gun to be somewhat suspect. It reminds me somewhat of the strange industrial residue that is being offerred on Ebay these days as "nine hole cannons" or whatever.

Spiridonov · 23rd January 2012, 05:22 PM

http://www.archaeologychannel.org/co...nne_700kW.html

10th August 2009, 02:10 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Spiridonov, I have taken my time and pondered thoroughly over the Otepää handgun. 1. Even if it was made in the late 14th century - which I doubt very much - it could not be called the world's oldest handgun. This attribute is undoubtedly linked to the Loshult gun which closely resembles the earliest illustration of a gun found in the de Milemete manuscript, Christ Church, Oxford, which is dated 1326. The Loshult gun should be dated ca. 1350. 2. As discussed at large in earlier posts, the presence of hooks cannot be proven before the 1430's. 3. The presence of pan like mouldings around the touch hole seems to be an invention of the second half of the 15th century. 4. Although the Otepää gun is in heavily damaged condition now I should give a tentative date of ca. 1440-50 for it, with the longitudinal pan moulding being a later working addition. Michael Attached Images

10th August 2009, 03:40 PM	#2
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	thank you for answear

9th November 2011, 06:56 PM	#3
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	I am still thinking about this barrel. You have given a tentative date as 1440-50. So how he was able to get under the ruins if castle has been destroyed in 1396 year?...

10th November 2011, 02:06 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Alexander, I guess this was for a similar same reason as the famous Tannenberg gun was found in a well belonging to the ruins of a castle destroyed in 1399. Just because a certain place was destroyed in a certain year, the possibility that some decades later somebody came by those ruins and probably tried to explore them cannot be a priori excluded. Then it might have been the case that our visitor either stumbled and fell, the handgonne falling deep down under the ruins, or that he was surprised by somebody else and lost his gun in combat. Anyway, there is no doubt that both the Tannenberg gun and the Otepää gun were actually not made before the first half of the 15th century, ca. 1420-30 by the earliest, as I pointed out in a former post. So how it came they were both found between earlier ruins is completely left to speculation - dissatisfying as it may be. Best, Michael

22nd January 2012, 09:31 PM	#5
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Weapons in Otepaa castle http://michael-engel.io.ua/album323940

23rd January 2012, 12:15 AM	#6
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Are there more photos of the excavated piece than the one I see? I'd need many more photos, close up, to get an idea of the beast under consideration. I wouldn't have such a big problem with it if it only had one departure from "conventional" contemporary gun design, but the fact that it has several significant differences causes its identification as any kind of a gun to be somewhat suspect. It reminds me somewhat of the strange industrial residue that is being offerred on Ebay these days as "nine hole cannons" or whatever.

23rd January 2012, 05:22 PM	#7
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	http://www.archaeologychannel.org/co...nne_700kW.html