PRIMATIVE AMERICAN ARMOR

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=celtan]Cuera is probably an americanized term derived from Cuero (Leather), "Soldado de Cuero" (leathern Soldiers) was probably the original term.

The other closest aception would be "Soldadas en cuero", which would basically translate "Naked Warrior Ladies"....

Yes, the concept boggles the mind....



Oops! Thank you Manolo!!! I certainly wasn't thinking of 'naked warrior ladies ..or in leather' , my Spanish is pretty bad.
Good notes on the use of leather in Spain in the Reconquista period, and these traditional forms certainly did continue in the frontiers of New Spain.

I found more on the legendary Comanche chief Phohebits Quasho known as 'iron jacket'. There seem to be varying accounts on the spelling of his name, as well as to the weapon that finally brought him down. We know the Texas Rangers and Tonkawa warriors who pursued the Comanche's were using Colt revolvers as well as 'buffalo rifles'. The gun used by the marksman that finally broke the 'magic' of iron shirt or jacket, was believed a .58 cal. Henry buffalo rifle, but some say it was a Sharps buffalo rifle.

The event was the Battle of Little Robe Creek, May 12, 1858 and took place in the Antelope Hills of Oklahoma, near Canadian River. It was said that the rifle shot struck Iron Shirt in the side, behind the armor breastplate (?) which was said to have been of plate armor from Spanish explorers.
Other accounts note that he wore Spanish mail under his garments, which had deflected the fire of low velocity or light weapons, causing the belief he had great magic protecting him.

It is known that Coronado had expeditions in about 1539 which penetrated into regions from New Mexico, across Texas, Oklahoma and into Kansas.
In many discussions on the armor of these explorers, it seems that the expensive plate armor breastplates were not particularly common, though mail was slightly more known until superceded by the use of leather vests and coats as earlier mentioned.

While it seems quite possible that 'Iron Shirt' had some type of armor, either plate, which would most likely have come from early Spaniards, or mail, also possibly from them, it could not withstand the much heavier velocity of the buffalo rifle, whichever it was. I wonder if the shot may have hit him directly and actually penetrated the mail.

One other instance I have found of another 'Iron Shirt' involved a Blackfeet chief of Grease Melters clan who wore a shirt of buckskin decorated with pieces of metal ("The Old North Trail". Walter McClintock, 2004, p.422).
Even after leather 'armor' had been abandoned by the end of the 18th century, the wearing of leather shirts remained as signifying rank or prestigious position.

Best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

I was just kiddin' with the language issues, Jim.

Sometime ago, an US based Airline had to cancel a full advertisement campaign. Its central motif revolved around the unique luxury of their customers flying on leather seats, translating it into "Viaje en cuero", which in common street-spanish means "travel naked"....

A pleasure to ponder , indeed. I wonder how many jumped into the offer !

: )

Seriously, though.

Perhaps it's not a matter of withstanding the full impact of a bullet, but merely deflecting same. The "petos" had a sloping curve meant precisely to do that, just like that seem in the "morriones". Straight-on they may have crumbled under the impact, but the angles may have made the difference. It's the same principle as used in today's armoured vehicles.

I recall a case in which an assailant shot at his victim with a .45 Colt through a car's front glass. The bullets bounced away..! I know the .45 is a slow speed slug, but it illustrates the deflecting-surface concept.

A thing to consider regarding these items. The Spanish had terrible problems with rust in the tropics, and in America in general. I recall reading that gun barrels, culverins et al needed to be smelted and recast every few weeks, often times leading to the conquistadores using bows and arrows instead.

Metal armor would probably crumble away without intense, specific care by their Indian owners across the centuries...

Best

M


[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

Cuera is probably an americanized term derived from Cuero (Leather), "Soldado de Cuero" (leathern Soldiers) was probably the original term.

The other closest aception would be "Soldadas en cuero", which would basically translate "Naked Warrior Ladies"....

Yes, the concept boggles the mind....



Oops! Thank you Manolo!!! I certainly wasn't thinking of 'naked warrior ladies ..or in leather' , my Spanish is pretty bad.
Good notes on the use of leather in Spain in the Reconquista period, and these traditional forms certainly did continue in the frontiers of New Spain.

I found more on the legendary Comanche chief Phohebits Quasho known as 'iron jacket'. There seem to be varying accounts on the spelling of his name, as well as to the weapon that finally brought him down. We know the Texas Rangers and Tonkawa warriors who pursued the Comanche's were using Colt revolvers as well as 'buffalo rifles'. The gun used by the marksman that finally broke the 'magic' of iron shirt or jacket, was believed a .58 cal. Henry buffalo rifle, but some say it was a Sharps buffalo rifle.

The event was the Battle of Little Robe Creek, May 12, 1858 and took place in the Antelope Hills of Oklahoma, near Canadian River. It was said that the rifle shot struck Iron Shirt in the side, behind the armor breastplate (?) which was said to have been of plate armor from Spanish explorers.
Other accounts note that he wore Spanish mail under his garments, which had deflected the fire of low velocity or light weapons, causing the belief he had great magic protecting him.

It is known that Coronado had expeditions in about 1539 which penetrated into regions from New Mexico, across Texas, Oklahoma and into Kansas.
In many discussions on the armor of these explorers, it seems that the expensive plate armor breastplates were not particularly common, though mail was slightly more known until superceded by the use of leather vests and coats as earlier mentioned.

While it seems quite possible that 'Iron Shirt' had some type of armor, either plate, which would most likely have come from early Spaniards, or mail, also possibly from them, it could not withstand the much heavier velocity of the buffalo rifle, whichever it was. I wonder if the shot may have hit him directly and actually penetrated the mail.

One other instance I have found of another 'Iron Shirt' involved a Blackfeet chief of Grease Melters clan who wore a shirt of buckskin decorated with pieces of metal ("The Old North Trail". Walter McClintock, 2004, p.422).
Even after leather 'armor' had been abandoned by the end of the 18th century, the wearing of leather shirts remained as signifying rank or prestigious position.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

LOL! Great one on the airline ad Manolo!!! I know you was kiddin! Actually I have always been fascinated by languages, even though I do not speak any except of course English. Most languages, especially Spanish, French and Latin based languages are somewhat easy to read at least in certain degree aside from looking up key words.

Well observed notes on the ballistics as well as the excellent observation on the armour if not properly cared for. The desert regions would have probably been an exception, and the long standing images of old cars sitting out there for many decades is something I have seen personally often in travels.

All best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

Yep, like the USAAF cemeteries, with AC that look ready to fly again..!

I remember that a couple years ago some archeologists found Mexican medals, hat ornaments, weapons and the like, all from the Mexican Wars. Virtually in perfect condition. IIRC, this was at San Jacinto.

Best

M

[Lee]

The article can be seen starting on page 627 here courtesy of Google books.

[VANDOO]

THERE IS A CD ON EBAY WITH THIS MATERIAL PLUS SOME MORE SEE THE SWAP FORUM IF INTERESTED.

[fearn]

I was able to download it as a pdf. Thanks Lee!