Modified 18th C Hanger ?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi guys,

Yep, that's the one. Nice photos. It's basically a sword' collector's price guide published in 2006.

The image in question, ID'ed as a 1770 hanger, has a wire grip and heart shaped guard. This seems to correspond to the M1742 you mention.

I own some north-european versions, but they sport spiral solid brass grips, and their knuckle-guard is attached to the pommel by means of a screw. I understand that even though they were made in the mid 18th C they were still being used until the mid-19th C by NCOs.

Mark's statement is very interesting, regarding their absence at excavations.

IIRC, brass was a premium metal in those times. Large salvage operations were instituted just to recover the brass cannons from sunken vessels. Could this be the reason they weren't left behind? Perhaps scavengers removed these from the battlefields after the action was over.

M

Excellent point Manolo!!!! Brass was, and in many cases remained ,a prime commodity in salvage for continued use in weaponry. It was easier to produce munitions grade weapons in volume as they were of course cast hilts. Also, they were less susceptible to the elements and corrosion in the field.
In actuality, most battlefields were indeed scavenged to retrieve weapons, far beyond souvenier hunting, as weapons became surplus materials often resold as described.
I once had a cavalry sword with certain regimental markings of standard issue on the hilt, but the scabbard was not with it.
Years later, the scabbard with matching markings and rack number showed up at a museum among listings of holdings of that weapon type. While purely circumstantial evidence, the suggestion would be a battlefield pickup, as one would presume that weapons so marked would remain together unless interrupted by circumstances separating them.

Best regards,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Just to repeat what others have already stated here, in that hangers of these types did span into the 19th century. I had a so-called M1751 with the marking of Dawes Birm, for Dawes Birmingham. Although John Dawes was making swords in the 1770's, this marking reflects that from about post-1795. Several M796 light cavalry officer's swords bear this marking. There was an excellent article in a Man-at-Arms antique weapons magazine from some years back by the esteemed artist/writer/curator Don Trionni in which he did research on the M1751 and pretty much proved that with rare exception, they were post 1790/post Rev War and most likely issued to the militias. My 2 cents...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Just to repeat what others have already stated here, in that hangers of these types did span into the 19th century. I had a so-called M1751 with the marking of Dawes Birm, for Dawes Birmingham. Although John Dawes was making swords in the 1770's, this marking reflects that from about post-1795. Several M796 light cavalry officer's swords bear this marking. There was an excellent article in a Man-at-Arms antique weapons magazine from some years back by the esteemed artist/writer/curator Don Trionni in which he did research on the M1751 and pretty much proved that with rare exception, they were post 1790/post Rev War and most likely issued to the militias. My 2 cents...

Well said Mark, and excellent support for what seems to be a growing perspective on these. I wish I could recall the number for that article in Man At Arms by Mr. T, which is a great article and I have seen that information in various posts on threads over the years.
In looking at the wolf/fox on this example further, it really does to have the overall appearance of one of the Harvey examples, and again wonder if these were blades supplied to various cutlers. The use of these hangers by militias would easily explain thier late use and obviously use by other ranks, not corresponding to the line units restricting swords to sergeants etc. only

All the best,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Many thanks to all for the info and opinions.
Regards,
Norman.