Modified 18th C Hanger ?

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2009, 08:19 PM

Hi Norman,
Extremely interesting !!!
Naturally this does appear an 18th century British hanger, and at cursory glance without hittin the books and notes, it seems that it corresponds to the form often referred to as the M1751. If I recall, it seems further that the M1751 designation may be misapplied as according to Neumann, these are not among findings in Revolutionary War battlesite excavations. Although that absence would not serve as evidence, it is interesting since so many other items are typically found.
The 'running wolf' fell out of use after the 17th century as far as I know in Europe and in England until Harvey reinstated its use sometime in the 1740's or 50's I believe. Most of his 'wolf' marks were stamped with his initials, but there were variations, so again, absence of initials would not preclude the mark being his.
It will be interesting to see what further discussion and research will reveal....in any case, very nice piece!!

All best regards,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 24th July 2009, 08:50 PM

Hi Jim,
Many thanks for your interest and info as always. Have been doing some digging since my original post and I think this may be the '1742' type hanger, the '1751' has a 'basket' and there is no evidence on the knuckleguard of my example of bars having been removed. The grip on mine is wire wrapped wood which I reckon points to the '1742' as the '1751' has, from what I can see, a spiral brass grip. Am looking forward to further input. Thanks again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2009, 03:36 AM

Hi Norman,
In what few notes I could find, you are absolutely right on this appearing to be the so called M1742 hanger, which seems to be as much in question as the also somewhat questionable M1751. As you note, the '1751' does have the bars to the knuckleguard.
It seems odd that this guard would have been removed in this way, again as the M1796 disc hilts were cut down on the inner side in the years after Waterloo. There did seem to be a great deal of concerns in this period about uniform chafing.
While these M1742 hangers have been thought to have been in use during the American Revolution, there have been suggestions that they actually date later, and the debate continues.
Not much help Im afraid, but sure has me curious

All best regards,
Jim

24th July 2009, 08:19 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,584	Hi Norman, Extremely interesting !!! Naturally this does appear an 18th century British hanger, and at cursory glance without hittin the books and notes, it seems that it corresponds to the form often referred to as the M1751. If I recall, it seems further that the M1751 designation may be misapplied as according to Neumann, these are not among findings in Revolutionary War battlesite excavations. Although that absence would not serve as evidence, it is interesting since so many other items are typically found. The 'running wolf' fell out of use after the 17th century as far as I know in Europe and in England until Harvey reinstated its use sometime in the 1740's or 50's I believe. Most of his 'wolf' marks were stamped with his initials, but there were variations, so again, absence of initials would not preclude the mark being his. It will be interesting to see what further discussion and research will reveal....in any case, very nice piece!! All best regards, Jim

24th July 2009, 08:50 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,644	Hi Jim, Many thanks for your interest and info as always. Have been doing some digging since my original post and I think this may be the '1742' type hanger, the '1751' has a 'basket' and there is no evidence on the knuckleguard of my example of bars having been removed. The grip on mine is wire wrapped wood which I reckon points to the '1742' as the '1751' has, from what I can see, a spiral brass grip. Am looking forward to further input. Thanks again for your interest. My Regards, Norman.

26th July 2009, 03:36 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,584	Hi Norman, In what few notes I could find, you are absolutely right on this appearing to be the so called M1742 hanger, which seems to be as much in question as the also somewhat questionable M1751. As you note, the '1751' does have the bars to the knuckleguard. It seems odd that this guard would have been removed in this way, again as the M1796 disc hilts were cut down on the inner side in the years after Waterloo. There did seem to be a great deal of concerns in this period about uniform chafing. While these M1742 hangers have been thought to have been in use during the American Revolution, there have been suggestions that they actually date later, and the debate continues. Not much help Im afraid, but sure has me curious All best regards, Jim