Wallachian Swords of the 15th Century: What Types?

TVV · 20th July 2009, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Here is a 17th century sword, having belonged to Constantin Brancoveanu (1654 - 1714).

Very nice sword, even thougbh it is much later than the discussed period. The blade looks like those blades with the Virgin Mary, for which Astvatsaturian claims were produced in Constantinople. There is a similar one I think in the catalogue for Rizsrad Janiak's collection.
It makes sense that high quality sabre blades with Christian symbols were produced for nobles from Orthodox and Catholic countires, whose aramament was under ehavy Eastern influence, such as Russia, the Danube Principalities and Poland.
Regards,
Teodor

Gonzalo G · 21st July 2009, 01:44 AM

Sorry, Teodore, I read more carefully your statements about the brothers Peter and Asen in home, and you are right. At first, I understood that you said they were roman, but you didn´t. Yes, they were were members of the provincial nobilty in the Roman Empire, though not from roman origin.

You see, I have but a very small time online, sometimes I read too quickly and make a likewise too quick response post, or I save some web pages in my PC, I read them latter in home, and days after I answer in the the forum...just to find that then, somebody says, "hey, that was already answered in the post number 3!!"...I must be more careful, since confusions and writting mistakes are multiplied in this rush.

I agree with all your statements from that post. Though when I answer maybe I will find that you already answered to my previous note. My apologies.
Regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo G · 21st July 2009, 01:59 AM

Very interesting, Emanuel! I think you have access to a better sources than I, beign rumanian. I would be driven crazy (yes, still more) in that bibliotéque of yours, in the Toronto University. Yet, there remains many contradictions in the different versions of the history of that period and place. Even the marxist historians from that area seem to repeat old myths. You have to peel layer by layer the facts, versions and interpretations to get the hard core of it.
Regards

Gonzalo

Emanuel · 21st July 2009, 02:09 AM

Being Romanian does not imply being knowledgeable about Romania, Gonzalo

I left Romania in grade 2. All I know is from my family, as I stated, and what I've studied on my own. I'm horrible with dates and I often need refreshers.

The monstrous UT library and I have become strangers lately (a recurring theme in my life)...I spend my time studying urban planning and city council decisions.

I quite agree about historians Gonzalo. Beginning in the 18th century, and particualrly in the 19th, there was great interest in the past. Romanian nationalism required the crafting of a heroic, almost-mythical past and facts were naturally bent to conform to the desired narrative.

All the best!
Emanuel

Emanuel · 21st July 2009, 03:14 AM

Here we go, some pics from 15th and turn of 16th century...from the top:

- 15th century flail and crossbow from Sibiu
- Cavalry of Mihai the Brave
- Mid-16th century war hammer and early 16th century mace
- Fresco from the walls of Sucevita monastery church, end-15th century - this one's interesting...cavalry in maille armed with lances, pikemen with polearms, swords seem to be straight, can't tell too well. The armor looks Turkish though, doesn't it?
The inscription at the top is romanian in church slavonic, if cyrillic readers can transliterate, i can read what it says.
- The sword of Stefan the Great, now in the Topkapi.
- Courtier and archer from the time of Alexander the Good (1400-1432). Moldovan prince, but relevant nonetheless.

TVV · 21st July 2009, 06:45 AM

Gonzalo, no problems. There was nothing wrong about your note, and Vasary is one of the best accepted authors on the subject of Eastern Nomads and their influence on the Balkans in the 12th to 15th centuries.

But we should get back on topic. Manuel, I am afraid the inscription is not in Romanian, but in a Slavic language which is quite similar to Russian. I can only read the last part, which says "and with charriots". I also think I can see the name "Israel" there as well, and I suspect the crowned figure says Pharaoh. Of course, Romanian was influenced by Slavic languages, so the inscription might be in Romanian, though I doubt it. I suspect the fresco represents a scene from the Exodus.

It is interesting that the charriots look similar to wagenburgs, which as we know were used by the Bohemians in the army of Vladislav III of Poland at Varna in 1444. It illustrates how artists painted what they were familiar with themselves, and so this fresco is probably a good presentation of armament and costume from the times.

After staring at the fresco, I can see a lot of maces and hammers, but the only sword I see is found on a foot soldiers behind the Pharaoh, and it looks curved.

Thank you for sharing these pictures, Emanuel.

Regards,
Teodor

Emanuel · 21st July 2009, 11:54 AM

Thanks Teodor,

Sucevita is in Romanian Moldova, where Russian influence was strong. I assumed it was still Romanian because at the time the liturgy used the Cyrillic alphabet and Slavonic. I've also seen Romanian written in cyrillic.

I have a number of other devotional paintings with scenes from the lives of saints which also depict characters in what seems like period clothes. Perhaps I'll scan those as well.

I've looked closer at the fresco and you're right about the lack of swords. To me it looked like the soldiers on the bottom left carried swords, but I can see axe-heads and maces now.

All the best,
Emanuel

Matchlock · 9th April 2010, 10:39 AM

- 15th century flail and crossbow from Sibiu

Hi Emanuel,

Could you please give the full bibliographic data of the book that you got that picture from?

Thank you in advance,
Michael

Emanuel · 21st April 2010, 01:05 AM

Hi Michael,

My apologies for the late response, I havn't been very active on the forum and I didn't see your post.
The source of the images is a small picture book called "Mileniul Romanesc, 1000 de Ani de Istorie in Imagini, Editura Litera, 2004". This is not a historical book and I'm weary of its accuracy. It doesn't contain much information.

Regards,
Emanuel

Reventlov · 28th February 2023, 10:27 PM

New thread continues here.

Teisani · 1st March 2023, 09:20 PM

Two more swords from the "Muzeul Militar Naţional - Regele Ferdinand I" Bucharest.

Gonzalo G · 22nd July 2009, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Being Romanian does not imply being knowledgeable about Romania, Gonzalo

Emanuel

Of course, Emanuel, but having your passion over this subjects, and the knowledge of the romanian languaje, you can access many sources many of us can´t. Thank you for the images, very interesting material!!
Regards

Gonzalo

pallas · 22nd July 2009, 07:31 PM

in the book, vasary put forward the three most common theories about the brother's ethnic identities and he seemed to favor the theory that the brothers where vlachs who had some cuman/kipchak ancestry as evidenced by one of the brothers having the turkic name "asen" (and that some sort of ethnic connection was one of the reasons the brothers found ready support from the kipchaks/cumans north of the danube) and that the vlachs, if i remember right, where to a degree ethnically integrated with the bulgars.

anyways its one of the more fascinating locations/periods of european history, where europen and asiatic steppe cultures where constantly in flux.

on a semi related note, ive been wondering how the kipchak/cumans became heavily armored cavalry as mamelukes when they had no tradition of it on the crimean steppes??? was this a tradition handed down from the ayyubids/fatimids and the kipchak/cumans where trained to adapt to it or did the kipchaks actually have a tradition of havily armored cavalry that im not aware of? sorry if this is a dumb question, ive been on a quest lately to find good historical reading material on the mamelukes (mainly the bahri dynasty, it seems the circassian burj dynasty was an era of decline for the mamelukes) but havent had much luck.

TVV · 22nd July 2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pallas

on a semi related note, ive been wondering how the kipchak/cumans became heavily armored cavalry as mamelukes when they had no tradition of it on the crimean steppes??? was this a tradition handed down from the ayyubids/fatimids and the kipchak/cumans where trained to adapt to it or did the kipchaks actually have a tradition of havily armored cavalry that im not aware of? sorry if this is a dumb question, ive been on a quest lately to find good historical reading material on the mamelukes (mainly the bahri dynasty, it seems the circassian burj dynasty was an era of decline for the mamelukes) but havent had much luck.

The Cumans, as evidenced by archaeological finds, had a tradition of fielding armored cavalry. There are some good studies on Cuman arms and armor by Russian authors - Kirpichnikov, Gorelik and Khudyakov are some names that come to mind. Gutowski's book in Polish and English on Tatar Arms also has examples of Cuman armor and helmets.
Regards,
Teodor

Gonzalo G · 11th August 2009, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pallas

on a semi related note, ive been wondering how the kipchak/cumans became heavily armored cavalry as mamelukes when they had no tradition of it on the crimean steppes??? was this a tradition handed down from the ayyubids/fatimids and the kipchak/cumans where trained to adapt to it or did the kipchaks actually have a tradition of havily armored cavalry that im not aware of? sorry if this is a dumb question, ive been on a quest lately to find good historical reading material on the mamelukes (mainly the bahri dynasty, it seems the circassian burj dynasty was an era of decline for the mamelukes) but havent had much luck.

I agree with Teodor. Furthermore, we must be careful to define the kipchaks, or other nomad warrior people, in base of exclusively ethnic considerations. Usually the nomad warriors were grouped as confederations of tribes of diverse origins. Attila´s warriors were not only huns, but also alans and goths, among others. In the introduction of the Codex Cumanicus it has been said that ‘…the question of Cuman-Qipçaq ethnogenesis has yet to be completely unraveled. Even the name for this tribal confederation is by no means entirely clear.’

‘A variety of sources equate them, in turn, with the Qangli, one of the names by which the easternmost, Central Eurasian branch of the Cuman-Qipcaq confederation was known….These tribes included Turkic, Mongol and Iranian elements or antecedents. ‘

Some tribes of the kipchak confederation probably came from the border with China and had a wide contact with chinese military inventions, and also had relations with the Gökturk Khaganate, which unified in a single confederation almost all the nomad tribes of eastern Central Asia. Since old times the turks used lamellar ‘heavy’ armour, as it can be seen in some representations of turkic warriors from that period. Turks were also known for their specialty in iron working. The first bugar capital, Pliska, with strong turkic presence and mostly, but not exclusively, due to it, was an important armory production center.

Kipchaks occupied a great territory of the eurasian steppe, and also had contact with the kazars, another confederation integrated with turkic elements, among others, which used to wear helmets, maille hauberks and lamellar cuirasses. Contacts with the military technology of Bizantium also should be taken on account. Members of the Bahri dynasty, the first dynasty of Mamluks in Egypt, were Kipchaks, which gives us an idea of the armour used by them.

Yes, they knew very well and used the arms and armour of the heavy cavalry, though the light mounted archer still was important in their ranks.
Eurasian-Central Asian nomads were not as primitive as we can think. In fact, they were very sophisticated in many ways. Ways related with war and survival in a very competitive environment. Many arrived to the occident because they were the less apt and were expelled from the steppe by the best, and even so many times they seemed invincible before the eyes of the occidental peoples. They carried more than few military inventions much time before the europeans knew about them, including siege machines, military technologies associated with the cavalry and the horse, suspension systems to carry the sword and an the unsurpassable techniques related with the bow and the military use of the archery. It has been questioned if the nomads made their swords. The turks made them, very aptly. Central Asia also seems to have been one of the old and few producers of wootz in the world.
Regards

Gonzalo

21st July 2009, 01:59 AM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Very interesting, Emanuel! I think you have access to a better sources than I, beign rumanian. I would be driven crazy (yes, still more) in that bibliotéque of yours, in the Toronto University. Yet, there remains many contradictions in the different versions of the history of that period and place. Even the marxist historians from that area seem to repeat old myths. You have to peel layer by layer the facts, versions and interpretations to get the hard core of it. Regards Gonzalo Last edited by Gonzalo G; 21st July 2009 at 02:12 AM.

21st July 2009, 02:09 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Being Romanian does not imply being knowledgeable about Romania, Gonzalo I left Romania in grade 2. All I know is from my family, as I stated, and what I've studied on my own. I'm horrible with dates and I often need refreshers. The monstrous UT library and I have become strangers lately (a recurring theme in my life)...I spend my time studying urban planning and city council decisions. I quite agree about historians Gonzalo. Beginning in the 18th century, and particualrly in the 19th, there was great interest in the past. Romanian nationalism required the crafting of a heroic, almost-mythical past and facts were naturally bent to conform to the desired narrative. All the best! Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 21st July 2009 at 03:28 AM.

21st July 2009, 03:14 AM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Pics... Here we go, some pics from 15th and turn of 16th century...from the top: - 15th century flail and crossbow from Sibiu - Cavalry of Mihai the Brave - Mid-16th century war hammer and early 16th century mace - Fresco from the walls of Sucevita monastery church, end-15th century - this one's interesting...cavalry in maille armed with lances, pikemen with polearms, swords seem to be straight, can't tell too well. The armor looks Turkish though, doesn't it? The inscription at the top is romanian in church slavonic, if cyrillic readers can transliterate, i can read what it says. - The sword of Stefan the Great, now in the Topkapi. - Courtier and archer from the time of Alexander the Good (1400-1432). Moldovan prince, but relevant nonetheless. Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 21st July 2009 at 03:29 AM.

21st July 2009, 11:54 AM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks Teodor, Sucevita is in Romanian Moldova, where Russian influence was strong. I assumed it was still Romanian because at the time the liturgy used the Cyrillic alphabet and Slavonic. I've also seen Romanian written in cyrillic. I have a number of other devotional paintings with scenes from the lives of saints which also depict characters in what seems like period clothes. Perhaps I'll scan those as well. I've looked closer at the fresco and you're right about the lack of swords. To me it looked like the soldiers on the bottom left carried swords, but I can see axe-heads and maces now. All the best, Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 21st July 2009 at 02:31 PM.

1st March 2023, 09:20 PM	#11
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Two more swords from the "Muzeul Militar Naţional - Regele Ferdinand I" Bucharest. Attached Images

21st July 2009, 01:44 AM	#2
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Sorry, Teodore, I read more carefully your statements about the brothers Peter and Asen in home, and you are right. At first, I understood that you said they were roman, but you didn´t. Yes, they were were members of the provincial nobilty in the Roman Empire, though not from roman origin. You see, I have but a very small time online, sometimes I read too quickly and make a likewise too quick response post, or I save some web pages in my PC, I read them latter in home, and days after I answer in the the forum...just to find that then, somebody says, "hey, that was already answered in the post number 3!!"...I must be more careful, since confusions and writting mistakes are multiplied in this rush. I agree with all your statements from that post. Though when I answer maybe I will find that you already answered to my previous note. My apologies. Regards Gonzalo

21st July 2009, 06:45 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Gonzalo, no problems. There was nothing wrong about your note, and Vasary is one of the best accepted authors on the subject of Eastern Nomads and their influence on the Balkans in the 12th to 15th centuries. But we should get back on topic. Manuel, I am afraid the inscription is not in Romanian, but in a Slavic language which is quite similar to Russian. I can only read the last part, which says "and with charriots". I also think I can see the name "Israel" there as well, and I suspect the crowned figure says Pharaoh. Of course, Romanian was influenced by Slavic languages, so the inscription might be in Romanian, though I doubt it. I suspect the fresco represents a scene from the Exodus. It is interesting that the charriots look similar to wagenburgs, which as we know were used by the Bohemians in the army of Vladislav III of Poland at Varna in 1444. It illustrates how artists painted what they were familiar with themselves, and so this fresco is probably a good presentation of armament and costume from the times. After staring at the fresco, I can see a lot of maces and hammers, but the only sword I see is found on a foot soldiers behind the Pharaoh, and it looks curved. Thank you for sharing these pictures, Emanuel. Regards, Teodor

9th April 2010, 10:39 AM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	- 15th century flail and crossbow from Sibiu Hi Emanuel, Could you please give the full bibliographic data of the book that you got that picture from? Thank you in advance, Michael

21st April 2010, 01:05 AM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Michael, My apologies for the late response, I havn't been very active on the forum and I didn't see your post. The source of the images is a small picture book called "Mileniul Romanesc, 1000 de Ani de Istorie in Imagini, Editura Litera, 2004". This is not a historical book and I'm weary of its accuracy. It doesn't contain much information. Regards, Emanuel

28th February 2023, 10:27 PM	#10
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	New thread continues here.

22nd July 2009, 07:31 PM	#13
pallas Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 53	in the book, vasary put forward the three most common theories about the brother's ethnic identities and he seemed to favor the theory that the brothers where vlachs who had some cuman/kipchak ancestry as evidenced by one of the brothers having the turkic name "asen" (and that some sort of ethnic connection was one of the reasons the brothers found ready support from the kipchaks/cumans north of the danube) and that the vlachs, if i remember right, where to a degree ethnically integrated with the bulgars. anyways its one of the more fascinating locations/periods of european history, where europen and asiatic steppe cultures where constantly in flux. on a semi related note, ive been wondering how the kipchak/cumans became heavily armored cavalry as mamelukes when they had no tradition of it on the crimean steppes??? was this a tradition handed down from the ayyubids/fatimids and the kipchak/cumans where trained to adapt to it or did the kipchaks actually have a tradition of havily armored cavalry that im not aware of? sorry if this is a dumb question, ive been on a quest lately to find good historical reading material on the mamelukes (mainly the bahri dynasty, it seems the circassian burj dynasty was an era of decline for the mamelukes) but havent had much luck.