Indian Composite Piece For Comment

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2009, 05:58 AM

Hi Trajan,
Thank you so much for the clarification, I worded that incorrectly, and meant to refer to examples that were ceremonial...which these clearly arent. Nicely stated, and these really are a fantastic grouping! It seems that these are well established as a weapon form, but can these be assigned to certain groups or regions? It would be great to know more on the examples you have displayed.
All the best,
Jim

CourseEight · 21st July 2009, 03:47 PM

Thanks so much Trajan for the great mace pictures! Is it your opinion also, then, that this hilt comes from a mace?

I would also love to see examples of dance pata with long braces, if you happen to have any pictures.

Thanks again,

--Radleigh

trajan · 21st July 2009, 06:54 PM

Hello,

It could be for a mace type but it could also have held an ax or spear as there were khanda hilted pieces with circular openings with these weapons as well.

Here is a pic of a pata hilt with dance blade and added bracer.

CourseEight · 25th July 2009, 12:31 AM

Arrived today; construction exceptionally shotty and probably done for resale. Handle part was a metal pipe, and the whole thing was held together with a single brass screw. Took 5 inutes to take apart.

Blade is probably NOT wootz but is a bit scratched so will have to be polished to be certain. Doubtful though. The tang has obviously been altered. Any thoughts as to the original handle form?

Now the handle itself is quite interesting. As already noted the appature is round, and of the same diameter as the pommel, which is open on top. One new observation is that the handle is hollow; I'm not sure what that indicates, except that it is lighter weight than one would expect. But I think the big question is concerning the hindged construction of the guard/pommel. I was able to pop off the pommel before removing any other parts because of the hinge at the top. Are there any other examples of such a construction? Off the top of my head, the only reason to make something like this is to make it "easy on easy off" which would imply that this hilt as designed to accommodate easy switching. Any thoughts on this?

katana · 30th July 2009, 01:20 PM

Hi Radleigh,
sorry to hear your disappointment about this piece

. Any news on the blade etch ? The guard is very interesting, the bird head appears to be an owl ....

"In India, a white owl is considered a companion and vāhana (Vehicle of god/goddess) of Lakṣmī, the goddess of wealth, and therefore a harbinger of prosperity. The owl has been adapted as an emblem to reflect its implications of wisdom (Wise old owl) by a revered military institution in India known as the Defense Services Staff College. In colloquial use, however, it is commonly used to refer to stupidity. The Hindi word for owl, ulloo is used to refer to a foolish person...."

The Defense Services Staff College was created 1905 as the Army Staff college in Deolali (near Bombay) before partition.

Is it possible that the hilt is ceremonial ..perhaps for the Army Staff College..the knuclebow 'arrangement' looks too weak for combat. The hinges have little strength, but judging by the colour variation of the guard / knuclebow perhaps a later addition.

Regards David

Jens Nordlunde · 31st July 2009, 04:24 PM

Here are my thoughts about the ’sword’.

The hilt is south Indian of a very old form, and the bird heads shown on the hand guard are parrots, a very beloved bird in south India. The blade does, of course, not belong to the hilt, but I don’t think it is a reworked khanda blade. Originally I believe the ‘blade’ must have been a rod, and not one to form a maze – so I believe it to have been a ‘sword’ for training.

CourseEight · 16th August 2009, 03:59 PM

Hi all --

Sorry for the long delay, but still have not polished the blade. As I said though, I'd be surprised if it came to anything.

Jens: Thanks so much foryour input! Another forum member has also put forthis idea to me via PM. I like it, because I think it explains why the hilt is designed to be "easy on easy off" : if the rod were would made for training, then it could surely break in the process and need replacement more often than an actualy steel weapon would.

A couple of questions: What do you think the origins of the blade are, and what sort of handle might it originally have had? Also, do you have any examples of Indian training weapons with "reusable parts"? I've seen training swords made entirely from laquered wood, but never one with a "real" hilt.

Thanks a lot!

--Radleigh

21st July 2009, 06:54 PM	#3
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	sword Hello, It could be for a mace type but it could also have held an ax or spear as there were khanda hilted pieces with circular openings with these weapons as well. Here is a pic of a pata hilt with dance blade and added bracer. Attached Images

25th July 2009, 12:31 AM	#4
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Arrived today; construction exceptionally shotty and probably done for resale. Handle part was a metal pipe, and the whole thing was held together with a single brass screw. Took 5 inutes to take apart. Blade is probably NOT wootz but is a bit scratched so will have to be polished to be certain. Doubtful though. The tang has obviously been altered. Any thoughts as to the original handle form? Now the handle itself is quite interesting. As already noted the appature is round, and of the same diameter as the pommel, which is open on top. One new observation is that the handle is hollow; I'm not sure what that indicates, except that it is lighter weight than one would expect. But I think the big question is concerning the hindged construction of the guard/pommel. I was able to pop off the pommel before removing any other parts because of the hinge at the top. Are there any other examples of such a construction? Off the top of my head, the only reason to make something like this is to make it "easy on easy off" which would imply that this hilt as designed to accommodate easy switching. Any thoughts on this? Attached Images

20th July 2009, 05:58 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Trajan, Thank you so much for the clarification, I worded that incorrectly, and meant to refer to examples that were ceremonial...which these clearly arent. Nicely stated, and these really are a fantastic grouping! It seems that these are well established as a weapon form, but can these be assigned to certain groups or regions? It would be great to know more on the examples you have displayed. All the best, Jim

21st July 2009, 03:47 PM	#2
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks so much Trajan for the great mace pictures! Is it your opinion also, then, that this hilt comes from a mace? I would also love to see examples of dance pata with long braces, if you happen to have any pictures. Thanks again, --Radleigh

30th July 2009, 01:20 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Radleigh, sorry to hear your disappointment about this piece . Any news on the blade etch ? The guard is very interesting, the bird head appears to be an owl .... "In India, a white owl is considered a companion and vāhana (Vehicle of god/goddess) of Lakṣmī, the goddess of wealth, and therefore a harbinger of prosperity. The owl has been adapted as an emblem to reflect its implications of wisdom (Wise old owl) by a revered military institution in India known as the Defense Services Staff College. In colloquial use, however, it is commonly used to refer to stupidity. The Hindi word for owl, ulloo is used to refer to a foolish person...." The Defense Services Staff College was created 1905 as the Army Staff college in Deolali (near Bombay) before partition. Is it possible that the hilt is ceremonial ..perhaps for the Army Staff College..the knuclebow 'arrangement' looks too weak for combat. The hinges have little strength, but judging by the colour variation of the guard / knuclebow perhaps a later addition. Regards David

31st July 2009, 04:24 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here are my thoughts about the ’sword’. The hilt is south Indian of a very old form, and the bird heads shown on the hand guard are parrots, a very beloved bird in south India. The blade does, of course, not belong to the hilt, but I don’t think it is a reworked khanda blade. Originally I believe the ‘blade’ must have been a rod, and not one to form a maze – so I believe it to have been a ‘sword’ for training.

16th August 2009, 03:59 PM	#7
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Hi all -- Sorry for the long delay, but still have not polished the blade. As I said though, I'd be surprised if it came to anything. Jens: Thanks so much foryour input! Another forum member has also put forthis idea to me via PM. I like it, because I think it explains why the hilt is designed to be "easy on easy off" : if the rod were would made for training, then it could surely break in the process and need replacement more often than an actualy steel weapon would. A couple of questions: What do you think the origins of the blade are, and what sort of handle might it originally have had? Also, do you have any examples of Indian training weapons with "reusable parts"? I've seen training swords made entirely from laquered wood, but never one with a "real" hilt. Thanks a lot! --Radleigh