Indian Composite Piece For Comment

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2009, 04:24 AM

I've been missing out on this thread, and Gene and David just wanted to note outstanding observations on this hilt!!! I never even thought of these maces

and very much enjoying the progression along with Radleigh's also astute observations. It always makes me glad to see the Indian weapons a topic, there is so much yet to learn, and I always do when you guys get going!!!

Trajan, beautiful examples, thank you for showing them here. I know these were processional or bearing type weapons, and the red coloring was I believe key in ceremonial regalia if I recall correctly. Regardless, these things are pretty scary looking, and definitely wouldnt want to be on the wrong end of one.

Thanks so much guys!

All best regards,
Jim

trajan · 20th July 2009, 05:04 AM

Hi Jim,

Actually the maces pictured are heavy combat worthy weapons of the 16th-18th centrury. I did not picture any of the more ceremonial types as most of them seem to have lighter construction and non-khanda hilts.

matt

trajan · 20th July 2009, 05:14 AM

I would also note that the long extended bracing resembles that of the ceremonial or dance pata. Pata hilts that have had combat blades replaced with thin flexible ceremonial blades tend to have extra long bracing like this.

Matt

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2009, 05:58 AM

Hi Trajan,
Thank you so much for the clarification, I worded that incorrectly, and meant to refer to examples that were ceremonial...which these clearly arent. Nicely stated, and these really are a fantastic grouping! It seems that these are well established as a weapon form, but can these be assigned to certain groups or regions? It would be great to know more on the examples you have displayed.
All the best,
Jim

CourseEight · 21st July 2009, 03:47 PM

Thanks so much Trajan for the great mace pictures! Is it your opinion also, then, that this hilt comes from a mace?

I would also love to see examples of dance pata with long braces, if you happen to have any pictures.

Thanks again,

--Radleigh

trajan · 21st July 2009, 06:54 PM

Hello,

It could be for a mace type but it could also have held an ax or spear as there were khanda hilted pieces with circular openings with these weapons as well.

Here is a pic of a pata hilt with dance blade and added bracer.

CourseEight · 25th July 2009, 12:31 AM

Arrived today; construction exceptionally shotty and probably done for resale. Handle part was a metal pipe, and the whole thing was held together with a single brass screw. Took 5 inutes to take apart.

Blade is probably NOT wootz but is a bit scratched so will have to be polished to be certain. Doubtful though. The tang has obviously been altered. Any thoughts as to the original handle form?

Now the handle itself is quite interesting. As already noted the appature is round, and of the same diameter as the pommel, which is open on top. One new observation is that the handle is hollow; I'm not sure what that indicates, except that it is lighter weight than one would expect. But I think the big question is concerning the hindged construction of the guard/pommel. I was able to pop off the pommel before removing any other parts because of the hinge at the top. Are there any other examples of such a construction? Off the top of my head, the only reason to make something like this is to make it "easy on easy off" which would imply that this hilt as designed to accommodate easy switching. Any thoughts on this?

20th July 2009, 05:04 AM	#2
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	maces Hi Jim, Actually the maces pictured are heavy combat worthy weapons of the 16th-18th centrury. I did not picture any of the more ceremonial types as most of them seem to have lighter construction and non-khanda hilts. matt

20th July 2009, 05:14 AM	#3
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	bracing I would also note that the long extended bracing resembles that of the ceremonial or dance pata. Pata hilts that have had combat blades replaced with thin flexible ceremonial blades tend to have extra long bracing like this. Matt

21st July 2009, 06:54 PM	#6
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	sword Hello, It could be for a mace type but it could also have held an ax or spear as there were khanda hilted pieces with circular openings with these weapons as well. Here is a pic of a pata hilt with dance blade and added bracer. Attached Images

25th July 2009, 12:31 AM	#7
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Arrived today; construction exceptionally shotty and probably done for resale. Handle part was a metal pipe, and the whole thing was held together with a single brass screw. Took 5 inutes to take apart. Blade is probably NOT wootz but is a bit scratched so will have to be polished to be certain. Doubtful though. The tang has obviously been altered. Any thoughts as to the original handle form? Now the handle itself is quite interesting. As already noted the appature is round, and of the same diameter as the pommel, which is open on top. One new observation is that the handle is hollow; I'm not sure what that indicates, except that it is lighter weight than one would expect. But I think the big question is concerning the hindged construction of the guard/pommel. I was able to pop off the pommel before removing any other parts because of the hinge at the top. Are there any other examples of such a construction? Off the top of my head, the only reason to make something like this is to make it "easy on easy off" which would imply that this hilt as designed to accommodate easy switching. Any thoughts on this? Attached Images

20th July 2009, 04:24 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	I've been missing out on this thread, and Gene and David just wanted to note outstanding observations on this hilt!!! I never even thought of these maces and very much enjoying the progression along with Radleigh's also astute observations. It always makes me glad to see the Indian weapons a topic, there is so much yet to learn, and I always do when you guys get going!!! Trajan, beautiful examples, thank you for showing them here. I know these were processional or bearing type weapons, and the red coloring was I believe key in ceremonial regalia if I recall correctly. Regardless, these things are pretty scary looking, and definitely wouldnt want to be on the wrong end of one. Thanks so much guys! All best regards, Jim

20th July 2009, 05:58 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Trajan, Thank you so much for the clarification, I worded that incorrectly, and meant to refer to examples that were ceremonial...which these clearly arent. Nicely stated, and these really are a fantastic grouping! It seems that these are well established as a weapon form, but can these be assigned to certain groups or regions? It would be great to know more on the examples you have displayed. All the best, Jim

21st July 2009, 03:47 PM	#5
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks so much Trajan for the great mace pictures! Is it your opinion also, then, that this hilt comes from a mace? I would also love to see examples of dance pata with long braces, if you happen to have any pictures. Thanks again, --Radleigh