Indian Composite Piece For Comment

[Jim McDougall]

Very unusual! This seems to reflect the very early hilt form of the khanda, and obviously not a weapon in the true sense as well as clearly composite. It seems there are traces of red paint? Perhaps a votive temple item?
The nagan blade and interpretations of early actual weapon types would suggest something perhaps used processionally or ceremonially.

Best regards,
Jim

[Atlantia]

Hi Radleigh

This is indeed interesting.
I find myself wondering (As Jim clearly has) about the rather chunky Khanda hilt.
What struck me is the fact that the pommel appears to be a 'ring' as does the 'slot' for the 'blade'.
I am wondering if this was the hilt from a Khanda hilted Gargaz (or similar mace weapon) as that would explain the circular mounting holes to accomodate the thin steel shaft.
I can try and find a picture of one if anyone wants?

Regards
Gene

[katana]

Hi Radleigh,
The curves of the blade suggests to me that they were formed by 'stock removal' .....ground out sections of, I think , a Khanda blade. The re-inforcing strip seems also to have had the same treatment.
If correct, the next question is Why ? Perhaps there was severe edge damage and grinding the curves removed the damaged sections and gave the blade a new lease of life. I still believe the blade to be wootz so saving the blade makes even more sense as I believe that if wootz was reworked using a forge and anvil, the wootz patterning would be destroyed.
I think Gene has the hilt question covered ie a mace 'hilt'

Disappointingly the overall assembly of the piece seems a little crude. It would be a real shame that this composite was a 'modern' creation and a good wootz blade was re-worked (butchered) into a Naga style to try and increase its value (they do seem to be popular, commanding high prices)

Kind Regards David

.

[CourseEight]

Thanks fo the replies:

I'd love to see pictures of anything with a similar hilt construction, both in terms of the round pommel and round bolster, and also the unusual attachment of the hand guard. That does appear to be red (and black) laquer or paint on there, but I'll know more when I get it.

As for the blade, I'm keeping fingers crossed about its being wootz, but I'm not getting my hopes too up. Does anyone have examples of nagan-type blades that end with such a tip? Normally you see them tapering, rather than ending in the wide, almost spatulate way that khandas do. Also interesting is that the strap seems to be wiggly as well; never seen that either.

Thanks for your continued interest and observations!

--Radleigh

[CourseEight]

Hi David our replies crossed:

The thought had crossed my mind that the blade was originally a "normal" khanda, reworked in the nagan form. I guess my hope is that the curves in the blade seem to be reasonably well done (rather than the pointy types you see in for example later fillipino pieces). When I see the blade in person I'll know if there are ugly grind marks, whether it is sharp, etc. That will answer a lot of questions.

--Radleigh

[Atlantia]

Great thoughts David!

As for the mace, I thought I'd be able to find more than one picture! Sorry its not a lot of help, but you can see that the possibility is there:

Notice that the mace version doesn't have a back spike for the 'hand and a half' grip. That would also be fine with your 'ring' pommel.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

Thanks fo the replies:

I'd love to see pictures of anything with a similar hilt construction, both in terms of the round pommel and round bolster, and also the unusual attachment of the hand guard. That does appear to be red (and black) laquer or paint on there, but I'll know more when I get it.

As for the blade, I'm keeping fingers crossed about its being wootz, but I'm not getting my hopes too up. Does anyone have examples of nagan-type blades that end with such a tip? Normally you see them tapering, rather than ending in the wide, almost spatulate way that khandas do. Also interesting is that the strap seems to be wiggly as well; never seen that either.

Thanks for your continued interest and observations!

--Radleigh

Hi Radleigh

The paint also got me thinking. There are a reasonable amount of 'painted' (enameled, whatever) Khuds and Dhals that turn up. Certainly cheaper than Koftgari and it'd act as a rustproofing.
Wonder if your hilt was on a steel mace and the hilt was painted to 'disguise' its bronze construction rather than steel?

Regards
Gene

[CourseEight]

Thank you for your observations Gene, and for the picture of the mace. A couple of points:

(1) Since the pommel is rounded, as is the bolster, this wouldeem to imply that you think the shaft of the mace passed through the guard and attached to the pommel. Therefore the handle (gripped part) was in a single piece with the shaft of the mace. In my experience, however, the khanda handles on Indian pieces are generally a seperate piece rivetted onto the shaft/blade. The mace in the picture seems of this type also. Does anyone have any examples of a seperate guard piece, but a single piece shaft/handle?

(2) The paint on the handle looks to me to be accenting the faces and in chevron patterns, so I'm not sure it was ever supposed to cover the whole handle. Also, there are plenty of non-steel (copper, brass, bronze) Indian handles out there, some on quite fine pieces, so I'm not sure anyone would have a reason to hide the fact the handle was brass in the first place.

Thanks for the comments, and the more the merrier!

--Radleigh

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

Thank you for your observations Gene, and for the picture of the mace. A couple of points:

(1) Since the pommel is rounded, as is the bolster, this wouldeem to imply that you think the shaft of the mace passed through the guard and attached to the pommel. Therefore the handle (gripped part) was in a single piece with the shaft of the mace. In my experience, however, the khanda handles on Indian pieces are generally a seperate piece rivetted onto the shaft/blade. The mace in the picture seems of this type also. Does anyone have any examples of a seperate guard piece, but a single piece shaft/handle?

(2) The paint on the handle looks to me to be accenting the faces and in chevron patterns, so I'm not sure it was ever supposed to cover the whole handle. Also, there are plenty of non-steel (copper, brass, bronze) Indian handles out there, some on quite fine pieces, so I'm not sure anyone would have a reason to hide the fact the handle was brass in the first place.

Thanks for the comments, and the more the merrier!

--Radleigh

Hi Radleigh,

1: I also have never seen a Khanda hilt like yours, and the 'through' handle of a mace weapon or similar was the only possibility I could come up with.
You don't think the 'ring' pommel looks like it was made to slip over the end of whatever passed through the guard?
I couldn't find anymore pictures of Khanda handled Gargaz or other similar pieces.
There was at least one on ebay in the last 6 months or so, must be others on the forum with pics.

2: Fair comments, I don't disagree. I'm just musing 'aloud' and throwing ideas out there. I've personally never seen a Bronze Khandar hilt, or for that matter ANY hilt that quite fits this shape.

Regards
Gene

[trajan]

Here are several maces. Most are like one pictured where rod is flattened out and attached to khanda hilt.

One with early style hilt I have has the rod going through and no back spike.