Five Ball Hilt spadroons

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2009, 01:15 AM

Hi Gonzalo, Fernando and Chris,
I have many times emphasized I am far from being a linguist, but that does not curtail my inate curiosity. You guys are all really good at this stuff, and I really appreciate all the insight into these terms.

After bringing up the topic, and being satisfied with the information presented, it became even more apparant that in studying the weapon itself, the term became somewhat secondary, though not discounting the importance of the observations.

I really just wanted to know if the term itself may have reflected the somewhat pretentious character of the weapon itself, focused on the term spadroon. The szabla thing is irrelevant to what I was seeking, as are reviews of other weaponry terms, despite interesting sidetracks.

Thanks so much guys

every time you all talk, I learn!! Outstanding,

All the best,
Jim

Mark Cloke · 17th July 2009, 07:33 AM

Hi Everyone,

Jim contacted me to tell me about this forum so I have just registered. I recognise a few names on this forum but to those who don't know me my name is Mark Cloke and my area of interest is the Birmingham sword cutlers of the 17th/18th/19th century. Currently researching the 'running fox' mark and 'Harvey'.

On the subject of spadroons and the diamond motif I think we can say that this was not limited to Thurkle. I have seem quite a few of these and they are marked to a wide array of London and provincial cutlers. I wouldn't rule out Thurke introducing it (someone had to be first) but in my opinion it could have been anyone. I also wouldn't rule out a single 'hilt maker' supplying them to a wide array of cutlers. Some of these manufacturers often used by the large cutlers such as scabbard makers, hilt makers, engravers etc. are lost to time as only the 'retailers' names are marked (unless in Silver and hallmarked). I have quite a few spadroons on my site (not sure if I should link to my own site) with and without the diamond.

I don't really have an opinion on the five ball discussion. The Masonic link does sound interesting and they were certainly very active during this period. Now the seed is in my mind I will see what I can find out.

Mark.

fernando · 17th July 2009, 01:35 PM

Welcome aboard, Mark

.
Fernando

Jeff D · 17th July 2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Cloke

I have quite a few spadroons on my site (not sure if I should link to my own site)

Don't worry I already did. You have done a lot of work on it and is a great resource.

. Welcome aboard!

Jeff

fernando · 17th July 2009, 03:55 PM

Hi Mark
Can't you include the link to your site in your profile?
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2009, 04:37 PM

Hi Mark,
Its fantastic to see you here!! Welcome, and thank you for coming aboard.

Please do link to your site, which for the information of those here, is an outstanding resource which reflects the in depth research and detail that is characteristic of Mark's work. His article on the Gill family swordsmiths, which is presented by the Royal Armouries, is an excellent and comprehensive study which holds fascinating information on these important makers.

Mark, thank you for the insight regarding the diamond shape in hilt motif on these spadroons, and it seems that there is little to support any particular symbolism or assign to to a certain maker at this point. The network of hilt makers supplying various cutlers does make it difficult to designate such a design to a single one, and it seems that the diamond theme perhaps may simply be a popular geometric of the period.

The Masonic theory on the five ball hilt is one that I have been thinking on for quite some time, and I reopened the case here for discussion knowing that the core of knowledge here would provide just the venue to look more deeply into the possibilities. Your joining us here is a profound asset, thank you so much, and again welcome!!!

All very best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2009, 01:57 PM

Looking further into the choice of the word 'spadroon' and perhaps my query on it should have been directed more toward its semantics than etymology, I found some interesting notes in Egerton Castle's book "Schools and Masters of Fence" (p.207). These would seem to somewhat support my thoughts toward the term being more of a pretentious application used with reference to gentlemans fencing weapons and techniques of the times. Coupled with neoclassic allusion and the cultured elegance obsessions of the gentry, the term seems to have been more of a colloquial term in the sense of a fad of this period referring to cut and thrust.

Castle notes on p.207, "...the Italians and Germans had, it is true, a cutting play of thier own, and from them we took our so-called 'spadroon' or cut and thrust play, but it was practiced with weapons extremely light in comparison with our English backsword".

On p.243, Castle notes further, "...a cutting sword of still narrower dimensions, and with a much simpler guard approximating that of the smallsword was called 'spadroon' in England; it was in fact similar to the German cut and thrust rapier of the 18th century, which has been called spadone or spadrone since the disuse of the regular two handed swords, in the same way as the claymore retained the old name of a very different weapon".
* the reference to claymore of course meaning basket hilt, while the actual claymore was the Scottish two hand great sword.

"...the German spadroon was a regular double edged sword, but any light back or shearing sword was so called in English.

Best regards,
Jim

Hotspur · 20th July 2009, 07:00 AM

Bingo

17th July 2009, 07:33 AM	#2
Mark Cloke Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 4	Diamond Hi Everyone, Jim contacted me to tell me about this forum so I have just registered. I recognise a few names on this forum but to those who don't know me my name is Mark Cloke and my area of interest is the Birmingham sword cutlers of the 17th/18th/19th century. Currently researching the 'running fox' mark and 'Harvey'. On the subject of spadroons and the diamond motif I think we can say that this was not limited to Thurkle. I have seem quite a few of these and they are marked to a wide array of London and provincial cutlers. I wouldn't rule out Thurke introducing it (someone had to be first) but in my opinion it could have been anyone. I also wouldn't rule out a single 'hilt maker' supplying them to a wide array of cutlers. Some of these manufacturers often used by the large cutlers such as scabbard makers, hilt makers, engravers etc. are lost to time as only the 'retailers' names are marked (unless in Silver and hallmarked). I have quite a few spadroons on my site (not sure if I should link to my own site) with and without the diamond. I don't really have an opinion on the five ball discussion. The Masonic link does sound interesting and they were certainly very active during this period. Now the seed is in my mind I will see what I can find out. Mark.

17th July 2009, 01:15 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Gonzalo, Fernando and Chris, I have many times emphasized I am far from being a linguist, but that does not curtail my inate curiosity. You guys are all really good at this stuff, and I really appreciate all the insight into these terms. After bringing up the topic, and being satisfied with the information presented, it became even more apparant that in studying the weapon itself, the term became somewhat secondary, though not discounting the importance of the observations. I really just wanted to know if the term itself may have reflected the somewhat pretentious character of the weapon itself, focused on the term spadroon. The szabla thing is irrelevant to what I was seeking, as are reviews of other weaponry terms, despite interesting sidetracks. Thanks so much guys every time you all talk, I learn!! Outstanding, All the best, Jim

17th July 2009, 01:35 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome aboard, Mark . Fernando

17th July 2009, 03:55 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Mark Can't you include the link to your site in your profile? Fernando

17th July 2009, 04:37 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Mark, Its fantastic to see you here!! Welcome, and thank you for coming aboard. Please do link to your site, which for the information of those here, is an outstanding resource which reflects the in depth research and detail that is characteristic of Mark's work. His article on the Gill family swordsmiths, which is presented by the Royal Armouries, is an excellent and comprehensive study which holds fascinating information on these important makers. Mark, thank you for the insight regarding the diamond shape in hilt motif on these spadroons, and it seems that there is little to support any particular symbolism or assign to to a certain maker at this point. The network of hilt makers supplying various cutlers does make it difficult to designate such a design to a single one, and it seems that the diamond theme perhaps may simply be a popular geometric of the period. The Masonic theory on the five ball hilt is one that I have been thinking on for quite some time, and I reopened the case here for discussion knowing that the core of knowledge here would provide just the venue to look more deeply into the possibilities. Your joining us here is a profound asset, thank you so much, and again welcome!!! All very best regards, Jim

19th July 2009, 01:57 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Looking further into the choice of the word 'spadroon' and perhaps my query on it should have been directed more toward its semantics than etymology, I found some interesting notes in Egerton Castle's book "Schools and Masters of Fence" (p.207). These would seem to somewhat support my thoughts toward the term being more of a pretentious application used with reference to gentlemans fencing weapons and techniques of the times. Coupled with neoclassic allusion and the cultured elegance obsessions of the gentry, the term seems to have been more of a colloquial term in the sense of a fad of this period referring to cut and thrust. Castle notes on p.207, "...the Italians and Germans had, it is true, a cutting play of thier own, and from them we took our so-called 'spadroon' or cut and thrust play, but it was practiced with weapons extremely light in comparison with our English backsword". On p.243, Castle notes further, "...a cutting sword of still narrower dimensions, and with a much simpler guard approximating that of the smallsword was called 'spadroon' in England; it was in fact similar to the German cut and thrust rapier of the 18th century, which has been called spadone or spadrone since the disuse of the regular two handed swords, in the same way as the claymore retained the old name of a very different weapon". * the reference to claymore of course meaning basket hilt, while the actual claymore was the Scottish two hand great sword. "...the German spadroon was a regular double edged sword, but any light back or shearing sword was so called in English. Best regards, Jim

20th July 2009, 07:00 AM	#8
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	Bingo