TALISMANIC KERIS?

ganjawulung · 13th July 2009, 03:56 AM

Thanks, Sajen. I like this smaller size sajen too. And from the "smelling" of the blade, and from the former owner, I think that this palm-sized sajen (less than 22 cm) was once used to be a kind of amulet too...

GANJAWULUNG

Greybeard · 13th July 2009, 06:28 AM

Very interesting thread!

My smallest keris has a blade length of 17,5 cm (without peksi); 7 luk; very simple putut figure at the gandik; pamor ngulit semongko.

Unfortunately I still cannot provide photos ...

Heinz

sjors · 13th July 2009, 07:29 AM

I realy like these small keris. I hereby send a picture of two small keris of mine.
The "big" one has a blade length of 29 cm, the middle blade is 19 cm long and the smallest one has a blade lenght of 11 cm.

David · 13th July 2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Thanks, Sajen. I like this smaller size sajen too. And from the "smelling" of the blade, and from the former owner, I think that this palm-sized sajen (less than 22 cm) was once used to be a kind of amulet too...

GANJAWULUNG

I'm a little confused her Ganja. What other function would a keris sajen have other than a talismanic one? Isn't it already established that sajen are by their very nature talismanic?
BTW, i love the sheath on this little fellow.

VVV · 13th July 2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I'm a little confused her Ganja. What other function would a keris sajen have other than a talismanic one? Isn't it already established that sajen are by their very nature talismanic?
BTW, i love the sheath on this little fellow.

The main purpose of a keris sajen is AFAIK as a sacrifice, an offering (like the name says).

Michael

David · 13th July 2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

The main purpose of a keris sajen is AFAIK as a sacrifice, an offering (like the name says).

Michael

Michael, is sacrifice not a talismanic purpose. The word is from Middle Greek "telesma", from Greek, consecration, from "telein" to initiate into the mysteries, complete, from "telos" end.
This all seems well in line with "sacrifice", to make sacred.

VVV · 13th July 2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Michael, is sacrifice not a talismanic purpose. The word is from Middle Greek "telesma", from Greek, consecration, from "telein" to initiate into the mysteries, complete, from "telos" end.
This all seems well in line with "sacrifice", to make sacred.

Well yes and no and you forgot to credit the Arabs, tilsam

There is a difference between the etymological origin and the present meaning.
But maybe we should focus on the keris instead?

Michael

David · 13th July 2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

There is a difference between the etymological origin and the present meaning.
But maybe we should focus on the keris instead?

True Michael, so here is Websters present meaning:

1 : an object held to act as a charm to avert evil and bring good fortune
2 : something producing apparently magical or miraculous effects

At least to my way of thinking the purpose of making a sacrifice (perhaps not on the mundane level, but when dealing with spiritual matters) is in fact to bring about a "magical or miraculous effect".
So no Michael, i do not find the etymology of the words meaningless in this case.

Now, if we do return our focus to keris as you suggest, it is obvious that keris sajen have been used in the past as both a personal talisman to be keep and a sacrifical talisman to be, perhaps, thrown into a field in blessing. Just the fact that there are so many well preserved sajen that have been passed down as pusaka shows that many of them are meant to be kept, not "sacrificed" to the fields.

VVV · 13th July 2009, 09:11 PM

We seem to still disagree on how far you can stretch an explanation, like Webster 2, to give it another meaning.
The main purpose of an offering is to bribe, pay tribute or make the "spiritual matters" indebted to you (compare the Roman principle of do ut des).
It´s the reciever of the offering that maybe will produce magical and miraculous effects, not the object, by itself, that is being offered.

Source: One of the greatest researchers on magic etc., Marcel Mauss, covers sacrifice, reciprocity etc. in his classic book The Gift or even more specifically in Sacrifice : Its Nature and Function (written together with Henri Hubert).

Michael

PS Mauss´s student Jeanne Cuisinier specialised in Malay Magic etc. If you read French her books are IMHO even better than those of Skeat and Gimlette and at similar level as Winstedt and Annandale when it comes to this topic.

ganjawulung · 13th July 2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I'm a little confused her Ganja. What other function would a keris sajen have other than a talismanic one? Isn't it already established that sajen are by their very nature talismanic?
BTW, i love the sheath on this little fellow.

Yes, agree. Created as a talismanic. And for sure it was not made as a weapon... The sheath, IMHO not recent Maduran. Or could be Eastern Jawanese?

GANJAWULUNG

Alam Shah · 13th July 2009, 04:56 PM

How about this type?
Although the hilt is separate, it is still a talismanic piece, imho.

13th July 2009, 03:56 AM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Talismanic Sajen? Thanks, Sajen. I like this smaller size sajen too. And from the "smelling" of the blade, and from the former owner, I think that this palm-sized sajen (less than 22 cm) was once used to be a kind of amulet too... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

13th July 2009, 07:29 AM	#3
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	I realy like these small keris. I hereby send a picture of two small keris of mine. The "big" one has a blade length of 29 cm, the middle blade is 19 cm long and the smallest one has a blade lenght of 11 cm. Attached Images

13th July 2009, 04:56 PM	#11
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	How about this type? Although the hilt is separate, it is still a talismanic piece, imho. Attached Images Last edited by Alam Shah; 13th July 2009 at 11:39 PM.

13th July 2009, 06:28 AM	#2
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Very interesting thread! My smallest keris has a blade length of 17,5 cm (without peksi); 7 luk; very simple putut figure at the gandik; pamor ngulit semongko. Unfortunately I still cannot provide photos ... Heinz

13th July 2009, 09:11 PM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	We seem to still disagree on how far you can stretch an explanation, like Webster 2, to give it another meaning. The main purpose of an offering is to bribe, pay tribute or make the "spiritual matters" indebted to you (compare the Roman principle of do ut des). It´s the reciever of the offering that maybe will produce magical and miraculous effects, not the object, by itself, that is being offered. Source: One of the greatest researchers on magic etc., Marcel Mauss, covers sacrifice, reciprocity etc. in his classic book The Gift or even more specifically in Sacrifice : Its Nature and Function (written together with Henri Hubert). Michael PS Mauss´s student Jeanne Cuisinier specialised in Malay Magic etc. If you read French her books are IMHO even better than those of Skeat and Gimlette and at similar level as Winstedt and Annandale when it comes to this topic.