Five Ball Hilt spadroons

Jeff D · 12th July 2009, 07:10 AM

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of

) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2009, 03:20 PM

Thanks so much Jeff, I knew of the Robson reference to the 1786 Infantry sword, but its been years since I've looked at the 1966 John Wilkinson-Latham reference (another of my very first volumes!!). I appreciate hearing that reference as well, and this does support the appearance of these five ball hilts around that time.
The Masonic theory for this motif is of course based primarily on the cultural climate of the times and the observations noted and discussed. While there is the suggestion that this type of numeric groupings of beads/balls on hilts precedes these examples, especially in Continental countries, then the theory of course would go 'back to the drawing board'.

I would sincerely appreciate anyone having knowledge or examples of any sort of multiple ball motif of this type from earlier swords and other countries letting us know.

I think I'll do some further checking into smallsword motif.

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 12th July 2009, 04:15 PM

Hi Jim and Glen,

Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795.

All the Best.

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2009, 04:55 AM

Outstanding Jeff!!! and thank you for the excellent plate.
Its great that you have Petard.........please dont tell me you have Aries!!
You've really put together quite a library there.

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 13th July 2009, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

......please dont tell me you have Aries!!

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me

All the Best
Jeff

Hotspur · 13th July 2009, 07:24 PM

Thanks Jeff for the plate. Another had offered some other text and plate in formation with descriptions of French swords from the first empire on. That naval counterguard exactly is on a sword I transfered. My previously held example has been described first empire, so yes; a little later than the five ball trend itself. I'm also attaching a hilt that is rather crude. Also, though, from other texts placing it to the '90s but the blade possibly earlier. All I have read of the five-balls (and agreeably I have far fewer text references) has been mentioned as the '80s when they first appear. This one does not look very English at all in build. Possibly even assembled in the colonies but others have refered to it as continental (yet without a French provenance)

I guess I have to more than bow to the Anglaise designation as definitive but I wll continue to look at other origins and evolution.

Cheers

Hotspur; great stuff and thanks again

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2009, 08:23 PM

Absolutely Glen, research never stops!!!

The 'spadroon' shown in the top picture I believe is British as the 'cigar band' affectation did not occur elsewhere, as I understand. Interesting image of Pegusus (?) in the guard, and I am wondering if this might have been special order (as I believe these were) possibly to a yeomanry officer? Returning to Masonic, and even perhaps heraldic symbolism, which such unusual image might have associations with, there were instances where the lodge sentinels, the Tiler, actually had swords made for thier duties. Again, the sword could certainly have been worn in regimental duty as well.

The second sabre seems profoundly French, the black ebony fluted vertically is an affectation seen in many French sabres of the turn of the century. Also the blade in cross section with fuller to centre point is the Montmorency cross section I believe, also of this period. Interestly James Wooley of Birmingham often used this style cross section in his blades, so there remains that possibility.

As devils advocate, I have found some information that may subscribe to the aesthetics approach, and I include it here as I think it is important to present all possibilities whether for or against a theory.

In going through many references on smallswords looking for possible examples using this type of motif, it is interesting that the late Mr. A.V.B. Norman, one of the most astute scholars on hilt forms, does not make specific mention of any possible symbolism in these five ball hilts. I looked through both his "Smallswords and Military Swords" (1966) as well as the magnificent "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" (1980) which revealed no mention than the obvious description using the motif.

It does seem that smallswords of the 18th century, and particularly after the advent of the rococo period, showed an affinity for representation of paste jewellery, indeed many hilts were fashioned by jewellers. The closeness of beads to images of pearls is quite clear, and in certain Eastern swords with bearings enclosed in open channels the beads are often called 'pearls'.
The fascination for the Eastern European hussars and thier sabres was well established and their flamboyant fashion much admired.

One very important and well known regiment was that of Esterhazy's Hussars in mid to latter 18th century. The sabres of officers of this colorful Hungarian regiment (as seen in Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons", p.406, pl.36) has a string of beads (pearls) extending the length of the knuckleguard.
Whether this rather ostenascious style extended into the sabres of other officers of the time is unclear, and it hardly seems that this affectation on a single type of sabre used by the limited number of officers might influence an entire sword style. However, it does seem that the motif did appear in a number of places, which may have entered into the design.

Returning to Masonic possibilities, it is the numeric that is key, not the element of motif.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 14th July 2009, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me

All the Best
Jeff

LOL! Know what ya mean! Once upon a time I collected British regulation cavalry swords. Just for kicks I looked up "Swords for Sea Service" (2 vol.)...yikes...think I better put em in a vault!

All the best,
Jim

Dmitry · 3rd September 2010, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Jim and Glen,

Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795.

All the Best.

Jeff, would it be troublesome to look up the number 161 C sword in the picture you posted? I have a sword with the exact decoration on the guard - a hippocampus.

Thanks!

Jeff D · 4th September 2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Jeff, would it be troublesome to look up the number 161 C sword in the picture you posted? I have a sword with the exact decoration on the guard - a hippocampus.

Thanks!

Hi Dmitry,

It simply states that this is the "seahorse version of the naval officers sword". I will include a scan of the caption (sorry about the poor quality).

All the best
Jeff

Dmitry · 4th September 2010, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Dmitry,

It simply states that this is the "seahorse version of the naval officers sword". I will include a scan of the caption (sorry about the poor quality).

All the best
Jeff

Jeff, thank you very much! This confirms that my sword was a naval officer's weapon.

Jeff D · 4th September 2010, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Jeff, thank you very much! This confirms that my sword was a naval officer's weapon.

Very nice!

Jeff

Hotspur · 13th July 2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of

) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff

Well, I would somewhat disagree some of the information as published being a beginning of royalty buying into guild/craft membership. Somewhat ancillary was an earlier link I offered regarding trade, guilds and sponsorship. George III was also the underwriter to the Odd Fellows and granted their charter. An affair that goes right back to the more open/publicly known network of the Freemasons.

Quote:

King George’s father was a Freemason. Frederick Lewis, Prince of Wales (1707-1751), was heir to the throne of his father King George II. Frederick Lewis was of paramount importance because he was the first Royal Freemason. Once royalty entered the Craft, then everybody wanted to join, and the fraternity was assured of success. Frederick Lewis led a hedonistic lifestyle and died before his father, thrusting his son George III onto the thrones of England and Hanover in 1760 at the age of 20.

At about the time that Friday the 13th came about, England continued to support the Templars through transfers to the Hospitalliers. Few were charged with anything so much as a modern description of a misdemeanor. EIII became the treasurer of all the efforts previoulsy administered by the Templars. In a sense, Free Masonry and the Templars kind of relate an unbroken chain of networking and guild (craft) that parallels later advents such as the Odd Fellows. Edward the third bought his ticket into the linen armourers guild, his sons likewise. The Order Of The Garter was another continuation for fraternal purposes.

Then later in the 14th century being led to London against the same family during the march of Wat Tyler (sic). Was that last simply a guild struggle? I dunno.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am now probably just rambling about my readings from different stories of history

12th July 2009, 04:15 PM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim and Glen, Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795. All the Best. Attached Images

13th July 2009, 07:24 PM	#6
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 523	Thanks Jeff for the plate. Another had offered some other text and plate in formation with descriptions of French swords from the first empire on. That naval counterguard exactly is on a sword I transfered. My previously held example has been described first empire, so yes; a little later than the five ball trend itself. I'm also attaching a hilt that is rather crude. Also, though, from other texts placing it to the '90s but the blade possibly earlier. All I have read of the five-balls (and agreeably I have far fewer text references) has been mentioned as the '80s when they first appear. This one does not look very English at all in build. Possibly even assembled in the colonies but others have refered to it as continental (yet without a French provenance) I guess I have to more than bow to the Anglaise designation as definitive but I wll continue to look at other origins and evolution. Cheers Hotspur; great stuff and thanks again Attached Images

12th July 2009, 07:10 AM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of ) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html All the Best Jeff

12th July 2009, 03:20 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Thanks so much Jeff, I knew of the Robson reference to the 1786 Infantry sword, but its been years since I've looked at the 1966 John Wilkinson-Latham reference (another of my very first volumes!!). I appreciate hearing that reference as well, and this does support the appearance of these five ball hilts around that time. The Masonic theory for this motif is of course based primarily on the cultural climate of the times and the observations noted and discussed. While there is the suggestion that this type of numeric groupings of beads/balls on hilts precedes these examples, especially in Continental countries, then the theory of course would go 'back to the drawing board'. I would sincerely appreciate anyone having knowledge or examples of any sort of multiple ball motif of this type from earlier swords and other countries letting us know. I think I'll do some further checking into smallsword motif. All the best, Jim

13th July 2009, 04:55 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Outstanding Jeff!!! and thank you for the excellent plate. Its great that you have Petard.........please dont tell me you have Aries!! You've really put together quite a library there. All the best, Jim

13th July 2009, 08:23 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Absolutely Glen, research never stops!!! The 'spadroon' shown in the top picture I believe is British as the 'cigar band' affectation did not occur elsewhere, as I understand. Interesting image of Pegusus (?) in the guard, and I am wondering if this might have been special order (as I believe these were) possibly to a yeomanry officer? Returning to Masonic, and even perhaps heraldic symbolism, which such unusual image might have associations with, there were instances where the lodge sentinels, the Tiler, actually had swords made for thier duties. Again, the sword could certainly have been worn in regimental duty as well. The second sabre seems profoundly French, the black ebony fluted vertically is an affectation seen in many French sabres of the turn of the century. Also the blade in cross section with fuller to centre point is the Montmorency cross section I believe, also of this period. Interestly James Wooley of Birmingham often used this style cross section in his blades, so there remains that possibility. As devils advocate, I have found some information that may subscribe to the aesthetics approach, and I include it here as I think it is important to present all possibilities whether for or against a theory. In going through many references on smallswords looking for possible examples using this type of motif, it is interesting that the late Mr. A.V.B. Norman, one of the most astute scholars on hilt forms, does not make specific mention of any possible symbolism in these five ball hilts. I looked through both his "Smallswords and Military Swords" (1966) as well as the magnificent "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" (1980) which revealed no mention than the obvious description using the motif. It does seem that smallswords of the 18th century, and particularly after the advent of the rococo period, showed an affinity for representation of paste jewellery, indeed many hilts were fashioned by jewellers. The closeness of beads to images of pearls is quite clear, and in certain Eastern swords with bearings enclosed in open channels the beads are often called 'pearls'. The fascination for the Eastern European hussars and thier sabres was well established and their flamboyant fashion much admired. One very important and well known regiment was that of Esterhazy's Hussars in mid to latter 18th century. The sabres of officers of this colorful Hungarian regiment (as seen in Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons", p.406, pl.36) has a string of beads (pearls) extending the length of the knuckleguard. Whether this rather ostenascious style extended into the sabres of other officers of the time is unclear, and it hardly seems that this affectation on a single type of sabre used by the limited number of officers might influence an entire sword style. However, it does seem that the motif did appear in a number of places, which may have entered into the design. Returning to Masonic possibilities, it is the numeric that is key, not the element of motif. All best regards, Jim