Five Ball Hilt spadroons

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2009, 05:12 AM

Hi Glen,
Im really glad you started the other thread on fraternal swords and the military, and we've got great discussion now on both fronts. Thank you.

I would really like to know of earlier use of the numeric ball motif on another type of hilt in earlier times and where. I really cant think of anything offhand, and the first example of the five ball has always been to me the British five ball.
W.E. May ("The Five Ball Type of Sword Hilt", Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, #9,1963, pp.153-56) notes, "...as far as I have been able to ascertain, swords with the five ball type of hilt came into use in the Royal Navy shortly before the year 1790, as an alternative to two or three other types".
He notes further that the Army also had this type hilt, but he was unclear on whose came first.
It should be noted that Robson's "Swords of the British Army" describing the M1786 Infantry officers spadroon with five ball hilt, did not come out until 1975.

In " Naval Swords" by P.G.W. Annis ( May's co-author in the comprehensive 2 volume "Swords for Sea Service", 1970) also published in 1970, Annis states;
"...the combination of a beaded guard with a grip shaped to the hand may be considered a relatively late feature", as he is describing naval swords at the end of the 18th century.

Mark Cloke is a great researcher who goes into fantastic detail in his studies on weapons, particularly regulation patterns and his work I consider a valuable resource, and I would very much like to know if he has more detail on this topic.

I regret the loss of your brother, who must have been a wonderfully inquisitive and fascinating fellow, and you both must have had great conversations with the knowledge and interest you have in history.

As always, terrific illustrations you post!! and what a great Federal gorget!

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 12th July 2009, 06:08 AM

Hi Jim and Glen,

I am sure you are aware of this quote from John Wilkinson Latham's British Military Swords 1966 on Page 15.

"King George III's order of 3 April 1786 was that the Infantry were to have a strong cut-and-thrust sword 32 in. long and 1 in. wide at the shoulder, the hilt to be of steel, gilt or silver, according to the buttons of the uniform. Although there are no further descriptions of the sword, nor can any illustration specifications be found, the author feels certain that the sword illustrated at Plate 18 is in fact this one."

I don't know if this goes for or against the Masonic connection, or even if this is still considered correct. However it does place the five ball in the infantry by 1786 according to Mr Wilkinson Latham.

All the Best
Jeff
Plate 18

Jeff D · 12th July 2009, 07:10 AM

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of

) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2009, 03:20 PM

Thanks so much Jeff, I knew of the Robson reference to the 1786 Infantry sword, but its been years since I've looked at the 1966 John Wilkinson-Latham reference (another of my very first volumes!!). I appreciate hearing that reference as well, and this does support the appearance of these five ball hilts around that time.
The Masonic theory for this motif is of course based primarily on the cultural climate of the times and the observations noted and discussed. While there is the suggestion that this type of numeric groupings of beads/balls on hilts precedes these examples, especially in Continental countries, then the theory of course would go 'back to the drawing board'.

I would sincerely appreciate anyone having knowledge or examples of any sort of multiple ball motif of this type from earlier swords and other countries letting us know.

I think I'll do some further checking into smallsword motif.

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 12th July 2009, 04:15 PM

Hi Jim and Glen,

Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795.

All the Best.

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2009, 04:55 AM

Outstanding Jeff!!! and thank you for the excellent plate.
Its great that you have Petard.........please dont tell me you have Aries!!
You've really put together quite a library there.

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 13th July 2009, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

......please dont tell me you have Aries!!

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me

All the Best
Jeff

Dmitry · 3rd September 2010, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Jim and Glen,

Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795.

All the Best.

Jeff, would it be troublesome to look up the number 161 C sword in the picture you posted? I have a sword with the exact decoration on the guard - a hippocampus.

Thanks!

Jeff D · 4th September 2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Jeff, would it be troublesome to look up the number 161 C sword in the picture you posted? I have a sword with the exact decoration on the guard - a hippocampus.

Thanks!

Hi Dmitry,

It simply states that this is the "seahorse version of the naval officers sword". I will include a scan of the caption (sorry about the poor quality).

All the best
Jeff

Hotspur · 13th July 2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of

) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff

Well, I would somewhat disagree some of the information as published being a beginning of royalty buying into guild/craft membership. Somewhat ancillary was an earlier link I offered regarding trade, guilds and sponsorship. George III was also the underwriter to the Odd Fellows and granted their charter. An affair that goes right back to the more open/publicly known network of the Freemasons.

Quote:

King George’s father was a Freemason. Frederick Lewis, Prince of Wales (1707-1751), was heir to the throne of his father King George II. Frederick Lewis was of paramount importance because he was the first Royal Freemason. Once royalty entered the Craft, then everybody wanted to join, and the fraternity was assured of success. Frederick Lewis led a hedonistic lifestyle and died before his father, thrusting his son George III onto the thrones of England and Hanover in 1760 at the age of 20.

At about the time that Friday the 13th came about, England continued to support the Templars through transfers to the Hospitalliers. Few were charged with anything so much as a modern description of a misdemeanor. EIII became the treasurer of all the efforts previoulsy administered by the Templars. In a sense, Free Masonry and the Templars kind of relate an unbroken chain of networking and guild (craft) that parallels later advents such as the Odd Fellows. Edward the third bought his ticket into the linen armourers guild, his sons likewise. The Order Of The Garter was another continuation for fraternal purposes.

Then later in the 14th century being led to London against the same family during the march of Wat Tyler (sic). Was that last simply a guild struggle? I dunno.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am now probably just rambling about my readings from different stories of history

12th July 2009, 06:08 AM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim and Glen, I am sure you are aware of this quote from John Wilkinson Latham's British Military Swords 1966 on Page 15. "King George III's order of 3 April 1786 was that the Infantry were to have a strong cut-and-thrust sword 32 in. long and 1 in. wide at the shoulder, the hilt to be of steel, gilt or silver, according to the buttons of the uniform. Although there are no further descriptions of the sword, nor can any illustration specifications be found, the author feels certain that the sword illustrated at Plate 18 is in fact this one." I don't know if this goes for or against the Masonic connection, or even if this is still considered correct. However it does place the five ball in the infantry by 1786 according to Mr Wilkinson Latham. All the Best Jeff Plate 18 Attached Images

12th July 2009, 04:15 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim and Glen, Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795. All the Best. Attached Images

12th July 2009, 05:12 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Glen, Im really glad you started the other thread on fraternal swords and the military, and we've got great discussion now on both fronts. Thank you. I would really like to know of earlier use of the numeric ball motif on another type of hilt in earlier times and where. I really cant think of anything offhand, and the first example of the five ball has always been to me the British five ball. W.E. May ("The Five Ball Type of Sword Hilt", Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, #9,1963, pp.153-56) notes, "...as far as I have been able to ascertain, swords with the five ball type of hilt came into use in the Royal Navy shortly before the year 1790, as an alternative to two or three other types". He notes further that the Army also had this type hilt, but he was unclear on whose came first. It should be noted that Robson's "Swords of the British Army" describing the M1786 Infantry officers spadroon with five ball hilt, did not come out until 1975. In " Naval Swords" by P.G.W. Annis ( May's co-author in the comprehensive 2 volume "Swords for Sea Service", 1970) also published in 1970, Annis states; "...the combination of a beaded guard with a grip shaped to the hand may be considered a relatively late feature", as he is describing naval swords at the end of the 18th century. Mark Cloke is a great researcher who goes into fantastic detail in his studies on weapons, particularly regulation patterns and his work I consider a valuable resource, and I would very much like to know if he has more detail on this topic. I regret the loss of your brother, who must have been a wonderfully inquisitive and fascinating fellow, and you both must have had great conversations with the knowledge and interest you have in history. As always, terrific illustrations you post!! and what a great Federal gorget! All the best, Jim

12th July 2009, 07:10 AM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of ) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html All the Best Jeff

12th July 2009, 03:20 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Thanks so much Jeff, I knew of the Robson reference to the 1786 Infantry sword, but its been years since I've looked at the 1966 John Wilkinson-Latham reference (another of my very first volumes!!). I appreciate hearing that reference as well, and this does support the appearance of these five ball hilts around that time. The Masonic theory for this motif is of course based primarily on the cultural climate of the times and the observations noted and discussed. While there is the suggestion that this type of numeric groupings of beads/balls on hilts precedes these examples, especially in Continental countries, then the theory of course would go 'back to the drawing board'. I would sincerely appreciate anyone having knowledge or examples of any sort of multiple ball motif of this type from earlier swords and other countries letting us know. I think I'll do some further checking into smallsword motif. All the best, Jim

13th July 2009, 04:55 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Outstanding Jeff!!! and thank you for the excellent plate. Its great that you have Petard.........please dont tell me you have Aries!! You've really put together quite a library there. All the best, Jim