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Old 11th July 2009, 03:50 AM   #1
Hotspur
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Click Me You Know You Want To
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Old 11th July 2009, 06:04 AM   #2
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Come on Hotspur!

Anyway, Gonzalo, Bridge in French is "pont" so I think that's a proper derivation for pontoon (little bridge). As for that ESPADroon... what do you think? Is it a little sword, a big sword, or a frenchified spanish sword?

Frank
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Old 11th July 2009, 07:14 AM   #3
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Hi Frank,

Just where should we go? I am not intending to debate the reason Polish swords were termed such. It is just an old tired discussion to me. Nor am I excusing Neumann and others regarding straight sabres. It is simply information I would be repeating myself again and again, hence leaving it as a link.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am truly not one to worry about it a great deal
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Old 11th July 2009, 04:50 PM   #4
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Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.
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Old 11th July 2009, 05:47 PM   #5
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Hi Fearn and Gonzalo,

As already resumed in post # 3:
Spadroon: Obs. exc. Hist.1798 (ad. Genevan dialect espadron,= french espadon) A sword much lighter than a broadsword, and made both to cut and thrust.
(The Oxford Universal Dictionary)

Yes, Fearn, it is a fact that the augmentative suffix on, one or ão (portuguese), may also have a diminutive sense. This exception however sometimes is not correlative between latinic languages. Chaton, in portuguese gatão, is not often used, but does have the sense of large cat.

Ah, Gonzalo, pelota would very a popular term in spanish but is indeed a fench word (pelote), inherited from the provençal (pelota).

Pontoon, ponton, pontão is fact a bridge making element, but is also a little bridge, this being the aception mostly used in Portugal/portuguese.

Fernando
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Old 11th July 2009, 06:17 PM   #6
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OK, I think I have taxed my limited ability to comprehend linguistics beyond the limit Regardless of whatever reasons there have been for calling a sword one thing or another, and whether it falls correctly into the perameters of the languages noted, it sort of is what it is.

We know the 'katar' daggers of India were inadvertantly labeled such in an error of early arms writers, and should be called 'jemadhar'. But after the term has become formly emplaced in arms literature for over a century, it seems moot to try to correct what is colloquially established.

This discussion of the term spadroon has been enlightening and fascinating, but I'm all for learning more on the forms of these 'swords' and the variations of examples from England, to the U.S. and France.
Glen, BTW, thank you for the fantastic 'harvesting' !! and showing all the great examples.

I think it would be a great idea for a thread, or perhaps number of threads, to discuss for example a glossary of sword terms, with each example having some of the etymology and colloquial possibilities. I know there are many terms with considerable debate that has ensued through the years, for example pas' d' ane ; fuller/ channel/ blood gutter etc. .
Not here, but on another thread. I am incredibly impressed with the knowledge on linguistics and etymology seen here!!! so it would seem we are well versed enough to archive a great thread on these.

Meanwhile, back to the 'spadroons' (aka straight blade swords).


All very best regards,
Jim
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Old 16th July 2009, 10:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hi Fearn and Gonzalo,

As already resumed in post # 3:
Spadroon: Obs. exc. Hist.1798 (ad. Genevan dialect espadron,= french espadon) A sword much lighter than a broadsword, and made both to cut and thrust.
(The Oxford Universal Dictionary)

Yes, Fearn, it is a fact that the augmentative suffix on, one or ão (portuguese), may also have a diminutive sense. This exception however sometimes is not correlative between latinic languages. Chaton, in portuguese gatão, is not often used, but does have the sense of large cat.

Ah, Gonzalo, pelota would very a popular term in spanish but is indeed a fench word (pelote), inherited from the provençal (pelota).

Pontoon, ponton, pontão is fact a bridge making element, but is also a little bridge, this being the aception mostly used in Portugal/portuguese.

Fernando
Nando, thank you for your comments. I agree with Jim about the origin of the word being to a certain point irrelevant. If jambiyya means "hip" it does not authorize to call "jambiyyas all daggers carried on the hip. Szabla is an historic weapon, with clear features, including a curved blade, no matter what the name meant originally. If it is a fact that the term is used in other sense and is accepted as such in english, it is all what I wanted to know. It only surprised me.

Fearn, I enjoy your comments, as always.
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Old 16th July 2009, 10:30 PM   #8
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Hi Gonzalo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzalo G
... I agree with Jim about the origin of the word being to a certain point irrelevant...
It is not a question of relevancy; it was just because:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
... I'd like to open some discussion on the term 'spadroon', the etymology...
Sorry .

Saludos

Fernando.
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Old 16th July 2009, 10:45 PM   #9
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Hi Folks,

A wonderful and most informative thread. Thank you all for your inputs.

Without being a linguist, I can fairly confidently say that languages rely to a very considerable degree on prevailing conventions. And these conventions impart the meaning to many words used. For example, `Cool' today can have a very different meaning than say a hundred years ago.

Often, in a given era, certain terms were used synonymously with other terms, which in a later era were sharply differentiated - The nomenclature of Gaucho knives immediately springs to mind, as do ancient fencing terms. It is the researcher's task to unravel what a particular term meant then and today. Failure to do so simply leads to confusion and incorrect interpretations.

Cheers
Chris
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Old 11th July 2009, 07:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearn
Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.
Hah, I can understand that from the perspective as a complete stranger but I hope all true arms collectors and scholars can share in trust. My browser shows my links when I mouse over such links. It is just a search result from Google for szabla word origin and meanings. To me, a more cheery type of post than "Hey dimwit, run a Google search for szabla" That process exactly was my realization some years ago in the midst of a thread's death throes regarding the meaning of the word sabre. Unresolved in the end? I dunno


Cheers

Hotspur; I will admit to once linking to a Johhny Cash mariachi intro wav file when regarding Mexican blades
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Old 11th July 2009, 08:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotspur
Hah, I can understand that from the perspective as a complete stranger but I hope all true arms collectors and scholars can share in trust. My browser shows my links when I mouse over such links. It is just a search result from Google for szabla word origin and meanings. To me, a more cheery type of post than "Hey dimwit, run a Google search for szabla" That process exactly was my realization some years ago in the midst of a thread's death throes regarding the meaning of the word sabre. Unresolved in the end? I dunno


Cheers

Hotspur; I will admit to once linking to a Johhny Cash mariachi intro wav file when regarding Mexican blades


Well noted Glen! Another thread in 'death throes' with the discussion of the meaning of the word sabre? What a shock! LOL! I wish I could count the number of such discussions over the years, and the inevitably unresolved muddle that was typically left. ....also try the 'origins' of the sabre for really hot debates.

I somewhat understand the note by Frank on links, the daily barrage of spam around has truly gotten people paranoid.....just a knee jerk thing. However the staff here work incredibly hard at keeping this flak under control....and the right level of kevlar around the forum. ..old habits die hard though.

It really is amazing some stuff that comes up in searches ......the Wiki link was interesting, and I did click on it, though admit I felt a little of the same apprehension as it is against my grain....I only did it cuz I know you Glen
Maybe a few words on what the link is would be gooder trying to keep in line with the linguistics theme.

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Loved the Mariachi analogy in the search on Mexican blades....gotta admit it is perfectly placed theme music!! But then there was my experience with hard rock, stiff drink and a tulwar.....uh, took out a ceiling fan..oops.
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Old 11th July 2009, 08:16 PM   #12
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Hi Hotspur and Jim,

As I said, it's paranoia, not necessarily rational. Of course, one could consider that posting a description of the link is a politeness to the reader, who gets to decide whether it's worthwhile following the link or not.

As for debating the origin of saber...well, we could debate whether the short ones are knives or swords, just to make the argument really messy.


Best,

F
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Old 11th July 2009, 07:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearn
Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.
Goes to Google results for :

' szabla word origin to cut '
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