Five Ball Hilt spadroons

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Straight sabres can well turn into a ninja vs pirate debate. Looking far enough back to the origin of the term sabre will eventually go back to an eastern European term simply meaning to cut. What cuts better? Straight or curved? Pirates win that debate I believe even the Wiki for sabre acknowledged my insistence that the root of the word simply meant "to cut".

Neumann seems like a long lost uncle to me and is fond of confusing any issue. A straight sabre is simply a straight cutter (see above) and perhaps a tongue in cheek to keep the beer (and/or popcorn) flowing.

I may be missing my mind more than anything else but I believe the bastardization of the latin to use the term of spadroon may well be more Germanic in thought.

Anyway, having started to go through some lost drive files; I wanted to share another gaper with seven balls. It looks to me to be another optioned Ames casting (or not).

Cheers

Hotspur; I'm pretty sure I have more examples of the 7s as well

Are you saying that the term ´szabla´does not designate a historical type of weapon, but anything that cuts? ...I don´t believe so. And if this term designates specifically a curved sword of certain type, I don´t understand why in english you say there is confussion of terms, since this term passed to several languajes to designate specifically the same type of curved weapon. Wouldn´t it be the confussion elsewere? But I am not questioning anything or discussing anything, just asking to the experts what is the meaning of ´sabre´in english. The sword Puerto Seguro is not a ´sabre´ in spanish, but a sword, since it has a straight blade, and it is called, not very correctly, éspada-sable´(sword-sabre), because it has a straight blade, but the mountings or garnments in the style of a sabre. The correct term for this kind of sword is ´espada de montar´, meaning a mounting or cavalry sword.

It is correct in arab to call ´saif´all those weapons, since ´saif´mens only generically a sword. It is only an occidental cause of confussion, since arbitrarily occidental collectors called ´saif´only to a certain type of sword. Knowing swords in one thing. Knowing the language, is another. I don´t think we can call the viking swords a ´sabre´, just becauser they ´cut´.

[Hotspur]

Click Me You Know You Want To

[fearn]

Come on Hotspur!

Anyway, Gonzalo, Bridge in French is "pont" so I think that's a proper derivation for pontoon (little bridge). As for that ESPADroon... what do you think? Is it a little sword, a big sword, or a frenchified spanish sword?

Frank

[Hotspur]

Hi Frank,

Just where should we go? I am not intending to debate the reason Polish swords were termed such. It is just an old tired discussion to me. Nor am I excusing Neumann and others regarding straight sabres. It is simply information I would be repeating myself again and again, hence leaving it as a link.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am truly not one to worry about it a great deal

[fearn]

Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.

[fernando]

Hi Fearn and Gonzalo,

As already resumed in post # 3:
Spadroon: Obs. exc. Hist.1798 (ad. Genevan dialect espadron,= french espadon) A sword much lighter than a broadsword, and made both to cut and thrust.
(The Oxford Universal Dictionary)

Yes, Fearn, it is a fact that the augmentative suffix on, one or ão (portuguese), may also have a diminutive sense. This exception however sometimes is not correlative between latinic languages. Chaton, in portuguese gatão, is not often used, but does have the sense of large cat.

Ah, Gonzalo, pelota would very a popular term in spanish but is indeed a fench word (pelote), inherited from the provençal (pelota).

Pontoon, ponton, pontão is fact a bridge making element, but is also a little bridge, this being the aception mostly used in Portugal/portuguese.

Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

OK, I think I have taxed my limited ability to comprehend linguistics beyond the limit Regardless of whatever reasons there have been for calling a sword one thing or another, and whether it falls correctly into the perameters of the languages noted, it sort of is what it is.

We know the 'katar' daggers of India were inadvertantly labeled such in an error of early arms writers, and should be called 'jemadhar'. But after the term has become formly emplaced in arms literature for over a century, it seems moot to try to correct what is colloquially established.

This discussion of the term spadroon has been enlightening and fascinating, but I'm all for learning more on the forms of these 'swords' and the variations of examples from England, to the U.S. and France.
Glen, BTW, thank you for the fantastic 'harvesting' !! and showing all the great examples.

I think it would be a great idea for a thread, or perhaps number of threads, to discuss for example a glossary of sword terms, with each example having some of the etymology and colloquial possibilities. I know there are many terms with considerable debate that has ensued through the years, for example pas' d' ane ; fuller/ channel/ blood gutter etc. .
Not here, but on another thread. I am incredibly impressed with the knowledge on linguistics and etymology seen here!!! so it would seem we are well versed enough to archive a great thread on these.

Meanwhile, back to the 'spadroons' (aka straight blade swords).


All very best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Fearn and Gonzalo,

As already resumed in post # 3:
Spadroon: Obs. exc. Hist.1798 (ad. Genevan dialect espadron,= french espadon) A sword much lighter than a broadsword, and made both to cut and thrust.
(The Oxford Universal Dictionary)

Yes, Fearn, it is a fact that the augmentative suffix on, one or ão (portuguese), may also have a diminutive sense. This exception however sometimes is not correlative between latinic languages. Chaton, in portuguese gatão, is not often used, but does have the sense of large cat.

Ah, Gonzalo, pelota would very a popular term in spanish but is indeed a fench word (pelote), inherited from the provençal (pelota).

Pontoon, ponton, pontão is fact a bridge making element, but is also a little bridge, this being the aception mostly used in Portugal/portuguese.

Fernando

Nando, thank you for your comments. I agree with Jim about the origin of the word being to a certain point irrelevant. If jambiyya means "hip" it does not authorize to call "jambiyyas all daggers carried on the hip. Szabla is an historic weapon, with clear features, including a curved blade, no matter what the name meant originally. If it is a fact that the term is used in other sense and is accepted as such in english, it is all what I wanted to know. It only surprised me.

Fearn, I enjoy your comments, as always.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by fearn

Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.

Hah, I can understand that from the perspective as a complete stranger but I hope all true arms collectors and scholars can share in trust. My browser shows my links when I mouse over such links. It is just a search result from Google for szabla word origin and meanings. To me, a more cheery type of post than "Hey dimwit, run a Google search for szabla" That process exactly was my realization some years ago in the midst of a thread's death throes regarding the meaning of the word sabre. Unresolved in the end? I dunno


Cheers

Hotspur; I will admit to once linking to a Johhny Cash mariachi intro wav file when regarding Mexican blades

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Hah, I can understand that from the perspective as a complete stranger but I hope all true arms collectors and scholars can share in trust. My browser shows my links when I mouse over such links. It is just a search result from Google for szabla word origin and meanings. To me, a more cheery type of post than "Hey dimwit, run a Google search for szabla" That process exactly was my realization some years ago in the midst of a thread's death throes regarding the meaning of the word sabre. Unresolved in the end? I dunno


Cheers

Hotspur; I will admit to once linking to a Johhny Cash mariachi intro wav file when regarding Mexican blades

Well noted Glen! Another thread in 'death throes' with the discussion of the meaning of the word sabre? What a shock! LOL! I wish I could count the number of such discussions over the years, and the inevitably unresolved muddle that was typically left. ....also try the 'origins' of the sabre for really hot debates.

I somewhat understand the note by Frank on links, the daily barrage of spam around has truly gotten people paranoid.....just a knee jerk thing. However the staff here work incredibly hard at keeping this flak under control....and the right level of kevlar around the forum. ..old habits die hard though.

It really is amazing some stuff that comes up in searches ......the Wiki link was interesting, and I did click on it, though admit I felt a little of the same apprehension as it is against my grain....I only did it cuz I know you Glen
Maybe a few words on what the link is would be gooder trying to keep in line with the linguistics theme.

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Loved the Mariachi analogy in the search on Mexican blades....gotta admit it is perfectly placed theme music!! But then there was my experience with hard rock, stiff drink and a tulwar.....uh, took out a ceiling fan..oops.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by fearn

Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.

Goes to Google results for :

' szabla word origin to cut '