Armour in the Wild West

Chris Evans · 28th June 2009, 10:12 AM

Hi Ausjulius,

[QUOTE=ausjulius].. it was becasue maybe in their whole life they would never shoot one person or be in one gun battle . and elk and bison dont have guns.
the most people were never in raging gun battles every week or fighting off bands of indians.. [QUOTE]

I think that you make an extremely valid point. Frontier societies were nowhere as violent as pop culture, through the efforts of the myth makers, would have us believe. For example, from reading Argentinean literature, one would be led to believe that the gauchos were constantly fighting life and death duels. And whilst in the 1870s the murder rate was 178 times worse than in England, nevertheless and despite such a violent frontier environment, a British immigrant of those days, recalled seeing only one fatal stabbing in a full decade of rural life.

Cheers
Chris

VANDOO · 29th June 2009, 05:10 AM

I JUST REMEMBERED ANOTHER USE OF BODY ARMOR OF SORTS IN THE OLD WEST. THE HATCHET MEN WORKING FOR THE TONG'S USED PISTOLS, AND EDGED WEAPONS AND WOULD WEAR THE QUILTED CHINESE COATS AND UNDER THEM LOTS OF LAYERS OF CLOTH AND NEWSPAPER OR OTHER MATERIALS. THIS PROVED SOMEWHAT EFFECTIVE IN GUN FIGHTS AND THEY WOULD BANG AWAY AT EACH OTHER A LOT LONGER THAN IF THEY HAD NO PROTECTION FOR THEIR BODIES.
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN EASY TO AVOID GETTING IN THE MIDDLE OF SUCH A FIGHT SIMPLY WATCH OUT FOR GROUPS OF FAT CHINESE IN COATS. FAT LOOKING CHINESE WERE RARE IN THOSE DAYS UNLESS THEY WERE BUNDLED UP FOR THE COLD OR BATTLE. YOU CAN SEARCH ON THE INTERNET FOR THIS INFO IT HAS BEEN A WHILE SINCE I RESEARCHED IN THAT DIRECTION BUT I THINK LOOKING UNDER TONG WARS OR HATCHET MEN SHOULD TURN UP SOME INFO.

Jim McDougall · 29th June 2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I JUST REMEMBERED ANOTHER USE OF BODY ARMOR OF SORTS IN THE OLD WEST. THE HATCHET MEN WORKING FOR THE TONG'S USED PISTOLS, AND EDGED WEAPONS AND WOULD WEAR THE QUILTED CHINESE COATS AND UNDER THEM LOTS OF LAYERS OF CLOTH AND NEWSPAPER OR OTHER MATERIALS. THIS PROVED SOMEWHAT EFFECTIVE IN GUN FIGHTS AND THEY WOULD BANG AWAY AT EACH OTHER A LOT LONGER THAN IF THEY HAD NO PROTECTION FOR THEIR BODIES.
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN EASY TO AVOID GETTING IN THE MIDDLE OF SUCH A FIGHT SIMPLY WATCH OUT FOR GROUPS OF FAT CHINESE IN COATS. FAT LOOKING CHINESE WERE RARE IN THOSE DAYS UNLESS THEY WERE BUNDLED UP FOR THE COLD OR BATTLE. YOU CAN SEARCH ON THE INTERNET FOR THIS INFO IT HAS BEEN A WHILE SINCE I RESEARCHED IN THAT DIRECTION BUT I THINK LOOKING UNDER TONG WARS OR HATCHET MEN SHOULD TURN UP SOME INFO.

Great information Vandoo! and leave it to you to come up with the exotic!
I had never thought of this particular aspect of the West, and did start looking into more on the fabled Tongs. Naturally I have heard the expressions 'Tong Wars' and 'hatchet man' many times, but never realized the origins of the terms.
The term 'hatchet man' of course conjures up immediate thoughts of the corporate 'efficiency' experts who eliminate personnel, and of course probably derives from the idea of 'hit man' which these Tongs used in thier clandestine dealings. There was apparantly a 1932 movie with Edward G. Robinson "The Hatchet Man" using this premise. It would seem the Tong (transl. =hall) were versions of the Chinese 'triads' who were originally created as protective units but evolved into clandestine crime organizations in the U.S. in the many Chinatowns. Naturally, the weapons used must have been all manner of available tools or implements, and the readily available axe or hatchet was certainly an effective choice.

The Tong Wars were essentially territorial wars between competing groups of these organizations that seem to have taken place frequently from about the last quarter of the 19th century and still exist ,though now more a gang type association. In group conflicts or fights, it is interesting that they contrived these ersatz bulletproof coats, and it is noted that the Tong groups by 1912 indeed carried firearms, even to what types were preferred. In New York, apparantly the On Leon Tong carried Smith & Wessons while the rival Hip Sing Tong carried Colts. With this it would be interesting to discover just how effective these coats might have been against these weapons....rather than the presumed thought of gangs with rather cliche' 'saturday night specials'.

You're right, much in the sameway one would be wary of a guy wearing a trenchcoat entering a convenience store in July, beware of unusually heavy Chinese guys in a group was probably good advice in those days.

All best regards,
Jim

VANDOO · 29th June 2009, 08:51 PM

HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF EDWARD G. ROBINSON AND LORETTA YOUNG IN THE HATCHET MAN. I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO SEE THE MOVIE LONG AGO BUT IT SEEMS TO BE IMPOSIBLE TO GET A COPY TODAY PERHAPS IT WILL COME OUT ON DVD EVENTUALLY. PIRATE HATCHET MEN HAVE BEEN FEATURED IN THE JACKIE CHAN MOVIES PROJECT 1 AND PROJECT 1A , A COUPLE OF MY FAVORITES.
THE TONGS OPERATED LIKE A BUSINESS/ COMBINATION SECRET LODGE HERE IN THE USA AND OFTEN WERE VERY INFLUENTIAL IN THEIR COMUNITYS.THEY AVOIDED TROUBLE WITH OTHER COMUNITIES AND USUALLY HAD THEIR FIGHTS SET UP IN AREAS WHERE THE LOCAL POLICE OR BYSTANDERS WOULD NOT SEE ANYTHING. IN SMALLER TOWNS THERE WAS SELDOM ANY TROUBLE AND OFTEN SOME WERE VERY GOOD FOR THE CHINESE COMUNITYS WHO WERE EXPLOITED AND LOOKED DOWN ON BY OTHER RACES. THEY WERE NOTED FOR SMUGGLEING IN WOMEN AND OPIUM AND SOME RAN ALL THE CRIMINAL BUSINESS ASSOCIATED WITH THAT AND SOMETIMES COLLECTED PROTECTION MONEY. NOT ALL WERE CRIMINAL ORGANIZATIONS BUT THE MOST FAMOUS OFTEN WERE, JUST AS OUR MOST FAMOUS GANGSTERS HAVE BEEN NOTED THE MOST IN OUR HISTORY. I SAW SOMETHING ON THE INTERNET ABOUT A TONG HOUSE IN ONE SMALL TOWN THAT WAS BEING RESTORED AND PRESERVED AS A HISTORICAL PLACE. THERE WERE NEWSPAPER ACCOUNTS OF SOME OF THEIR BATTLES FROM THE PERIOD IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY THERE WERE SOME GOOD ONES IN SAN FRANCISCO.

28th June 2009, 10:12 AM	#1
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Ausjulius, [QUOTE=ausjulius].. it was becasue maybe in their whole life they would never shoot one person or be in one gun battle . and elk and bison dont have guns. the most people were never in raging gun battles every week or fighting off bands of indians.. [QUOTE] I think that you make an extremely valid point. Frontier societies were nowhere as violent as pop culture, through the efforts of the myth makers, would have us believe. For example, from reading Argentinean literature, one would be led to believe that the gauchos were constantly fighting life and death duels. And whilst in the 1870s the murder rate was 178 times worse than in England, nevertheless and despite such a violent frontier environment, a British immigrant of those days, recalled seeing only one fatal stabbing in a full decade of rural life. Cheers Chris Last edited by Chris Evans; 28th June 2009 at 10:48 AM.

29th June 2009, 08:51 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF EDWARD G. ROBINSON AND LORETTA YOUNG IN THE HATCHET MAN. I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO SEE THE MOVIE LONG AGO BUT IT SEEMS TO BE IMPOSIBLE TO GET A COPY TODAY PERHAPS IT WILL COME OUT ON DVD EVENTUALLY. PIRATE HATCHET MEN HAVE BEEN FEATURED IN THE JACKIE CHAN MOVIES PROJECT 1 AND PROJECT 1A , A COUPLE OF MY FAVORITES. THE TONGS OPERATED LIKE A BUSINESS/ COMBINATION SECRET LODGE HERE IN THE USA AND OFTEN WERE VERY INFLUENTIAL IN THEIR COMUNITYS.THEY AVOIDED TROUBLE WITH OTHER COMUNITIES AND USUALLY HAD THEIR FIGHTS SET UP IN AREAS WHERE THE LOCAL POLICE OR BYSTANDERS WOULD NOT SEE ANYTHING. IN SMALLER TOWNS THERE WAS SELDOM ANY TROUBLE AND OFTEN SOME WERE VERY GOOD FOR THE CHINESE COMUNITYS WHO WERE EXPLOITED AND LOOKED DOWN ON BY OTHER RACES. THEY WERE NOTED FOR SMUGGLEING IN WOMEN AND OPIUM AND SOME RAN ALL THE CRIMINAL BUSINESS ASSOCIATED WITH THAT AND SOMETIMES COLLECTED PROTECTION MONEY. NOT ALL WERE CRIMINAL ORGANIZATIONS BUT THE MOST FAMOUS OFTEN WERE, JUST AS OUR MOST FAMOUS GANGSTERS HAVE BEEN NOTED THE MOST IN OUR HISTORY. I SAW SOMETHING ON THE INTERNET ABOUT A TONG HOUSE IN ONE SMALL TOWN THAT WAS BEING RESTORED AND PRESERVED AS A HISTORICAL PLACE. THERE WERE NEWSPAPER ACCOUNTS OF SOME OF THEIR BATTLES FROM THE PERIOD IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY THERE WERE SOME GOOD ONES IN SAN FRANCISCO. Attached Images

29th June 2009, 05:10 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I JUST REMEMBERED ANOTHER USE OF BODY ARMOR OF SORTS IN THE OLD WEST. THE HATCHET MEN WORKING FOR THE TONG'S USED PISTOLS, AND EDGED WEAPONS AND WOULD WEAR THE QUILTED CHINESE COATS AND UNDER THEM LOTS OF LAYERS OF CLOTH AND NEWSPAPER OR OTHER MATERIALS. THIS PROVED SOMEWHAT EFFECTIVE IN GUN FIGHTS AND THEY WOULD BANG AWAY AT EACH OTHER A LOT LONGER THAN IF THEY HAD NO PROTECTION FOR THEIR BODIES. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN EASY TO AVOID GETTING IN THE MIDDLE OF SUCH A FIGHT SIMPLY WATCH OUT FOR GROUPS OF FAT CHINESE IN COATS. FAT LOOKING CHINESE WERE RARE IN THOSE DAYS UNLESS THEY WERE BUNDLED UP FOR THE COLD OR BATTLE. YOU CAN SEARCH ON THE INTERNET FOR THIS INFO IT HAS BEEN A WHILE SINCE I RESEARCHED IN THAT DIRECTION BUT I THINK LOOKING UNDER TONG WARS OR HATCHET MEN SHOULD TURN UP SOME INFO.