SAJEN kerises

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2009, 05:26 AM

I thank you for your compliment Pak Ganja, but I must amend your understanding of my comprehension of Javanese; I cannot pose to possess a level of understanding which I do not have.

As I have said, I don't have a lot of difficulty with ngoko, but I prefer not to use it, because I could easily make a fool of myself. I stay with Indonesian --- or at least what passes for Indonesian in Solo---when I speak.In fact, almost everyday I learn a new Javanese word -- and I must admit, some of them make me laugh.

However, when Pak Suparman (alm) was with us, he gave me intensive instruction on all those usages of the various levels of Javanese that dealt with the keris. I have a good understanding of how to use Javanese in respect of those things to do with the keris --- but talk to me about wayang, or gardens, or cakes and my understanding is much less, especially if any level of krama is used.

I read Javanese reasonably well, but this is only because I have spent a lot of time in translation of both Old Javanese and Modern Javanese into Indonesian.

In relation to "dhuwung", I understand the correct romanised spelling to be "dhuwung", even though we will often spell it "duwung", and in pronunciation there is effectively no difference. The word "duwung" is a variation of "luwung", which means something like :- "preferable", or "it will be better if".

In Krama we have a couple of levels, but Madya is not really a level of Krama, it is an intermediary level between ngoko and Krama. Krama can be divided into Krama Inggil, which is High Krama, made so by the use of a small vocabulary of "respect" words that are substituted for the normal Krama words, and Krama Andhap which can only be used when we refer to ourself, and we substitute a small vocabulary of "humble", or "defacing" words for the normal Krama words. So, Krama Inggil and Krama Andhap are not really different levels at all, but only Krama with the addition of situational words that reflect hierarchical position in a further refinement of the hierarchy already established by use of Krama.The Javanese language is an accurate reflection of the hierarchical nature of Javanese society.

Please do not misunderstand this explanation as further evidence of my knowledge:- it is not. My knowledge in this area is a bit like the knowledge a motor engineer has of a motor:- he understands perfectly how it works, but he does not know what end of the spanner to hold in order to fix the motor. I have a very good understanding of the way the Javanese language, both Modern, and Old works, but I have not yet picked up the spanner.

ganjawulung · 30th May 2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Please do not misunderstand this explanation as further evidence of my knowledge:- it is not. My knowledge in this area is a bit like the knowledge a motor engineer has of a motor:- he understands perfectly how it works, but he does not know what end of the spanner to hold in order to fix the motor. I have a very good understanding of the way the Javanese language, both Modern, and Old works, but I have not yet picked up the spanner.

IMHO, seldom foreigner has a deep knowledge in multi-level javanese language as you do. Usually, they only know "ngoko" or just common javanese. And seldom know "krama" or even "krama inggil" level. I think, we javanese must respect person like you, or even like Nancy Florida, who take much attention to javanese culture...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 30th May 2009, 07:28 PM

These are more pictures on hilt part of "keris sajen" or as Hifi mentioned, "keris puthut" and some shots of a keris with dhapur "puthut kembar" or twin hindhu-priest with East Javanese hilt...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2009, 11:46 PM

Again Pak Ganja, you compliment me too highly.

To be honest, I sometimes think that with my background, and the length of time I have been involved with Jawa, I'm a bit of a goblok for not being able to handle the languages better than I do. Personally, I consider my level of understanding to be a bare minimum.

30th May 2009, 07:28 PM	#3
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	PUTHUT kembar These are more pictures on hilt part of "keris sajen" or as Hifi mentioned, "keris puthut" and some shots of a keris with dhapur "puthut kembar" or twin hindhu-priest with East Javanese hilt... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

30th May 2009, 05:26 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I thank you for your compliment Pak Ganja, but I must amend your understanding of my comprehension of Javanese; I cannot pose to possess a level of understanding which I do not have. As I have said, I don't have a lot of difficulty with ngoko, but I prefer not to use it, because I could easily make a fool of myself. I stay with Indonesian --- or at least what passes for Indonesian in Solo---when I speak.In fact, almost everyday I learn a new Javanese word -- and I must admit, some of them make me laugh. However, when Pak Suparman (alm) was with us, he gave me intensive instruction on all those usages of the various levels of Javanese that dealt with the keris. I have a good understanding of how to use Javanese in respect of those things to do with the keris --- but talk to me about wayang, or gardens, or cakes and my understanding is much less, especially if any level of krama is used. I read Javanese reasonably well, but this is only because I have spent a lot of time in translation of both Old Javanese and Modern Javanese into Indonesian. In relation to "dhuwung", I understand the correct romanised spelling to be "dhuwung", even though we will often spell it "duwung", and in pronunciation there is effectively no difference. The word "duwung" is a variation of "luwung", which means something like :- "preferable", or "it will be better if". In Krama we have a couple of levels, but Madya is not really a level of Krama, it is an intermediary level between ngoko and Krama. Krama can be divided into Krama Inggil, which is High Krama, made so by the use of a small vocabulary of "respect" words that are substituted for the normal Krama words, and Krama Andhap which can only be used when we refer to ourself, and we substitute a small vocabulary of "humble", or "defacing" words for the normal Krama words. So, Krama Inggil and Krama Andhap are not really different levels at all, but only Krama with the addition of situational words that reflect hierarchical position in a further refinement of the hierarchy already established by use of Krama.The Javanese language is an accurate reflection of the hierarchical nature of Javanese society. Please do not misunderstand this explanation as further evidence of my knowledge:- it is not. My knowledge in this area is a bit like the knowledge a motor engineer has of a motor:- he understands perfectly how it works, but he does not know what end of the spanner to hold in order to fix the motor. I have a very good understanding of the way the Javanese language, both Modern, and Old works, but I have not yet picked up the spanner.

30th May 2009, 11:46 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Again Pak Ganja, you compliment me too highly. To be honest, I sometimes think that with my background, and the length of time I have been involved with Jawa, I'm a bit of a goblok for not being able to handle the languages better than I do. Personally, I consider my level of understanding to be a bare minimum.