Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 11:16 PM

Dear Nechesh, I am glad to hear you are not slagging off the old Mpu. However if you think of the meteorite that have been showering earth since the beginning of time then there must be meteorite in rivers where the surface soil is brought by the waters. If only one gramme of meteorite fell on Java every year since the beginning of time how many tonnes of the stuff would be there when the Mpu's began to take center stage in the 10'th century?

You will not need years to be able to practise 'gerak nurani'. You only need a teacher to show you how and in ten minutes you will be able to do it. Find your lost keyes and stuff like that. To get really sensitive however you need longer. ... Also not only nickel containing meteorite can be used as pamor. The idea of nickel is new in kerisology, introduced by the Dutch of the old scientific school. The Javanese never knew the Western metalurgy and they had dozens of names for iron.

Salam Keris

BluErf · 30th April 2005, 01:43 AM

Interesting discussion, Gentlemen. I haven't read a series of posts as well written as Kiai Carita's for a while. Thank you and welcome to the forum, Kiai Carita.

What I'm going to write is not directly linked to the discussion above, but just some thoughts that arose while reading the posts.

While I am not a believer of supernatural or paranormal activities/powers, I do see the point that the keris in totality is anchored in more than the material world. And it is up to the individual how they want to approach the keris. So I would say Nechesh and Kiai Carita are on different sides of the same coin, and finding it difficult to see face-to-face. But that is not to say anyone is right or wrong. The world is made up of all views, just like in order to appreciate the keris, one must look at all physical angles, and then the non-physical aspects too. Some of us are 'irreconciliably' anchored in one aspect, but that is alright. Its our karma and dharma.

I think it is as important to consider how the keris is treated and perceived, as it is to look at what it is physically. The keris is a different thing as seen by different eyes, from the local Southeast Asians to the Westerners who 'veni, vidi, vici' centuries past and brought back a whole bunch of kerises to Europe (in a certain way, a fortunate outcome of an unhappy past because some of the most beautiful kerises got preserved immaculately).

Anyway, in totality, apart from the physical attributes and composition that make a keris beautiful and/or lethal, the keris has an aspect of mysticism and esoterism that is not so readily shared, understood or seen. However, just because it cannot be seen or proven does not mean it is not there (or there, for that matter). In fact, it may have never been meant to be proven. But not able to prove something does not make the thing less real. An idea/concept/story does not need to be proven. They are. (Well, if someone wants to find the exact origins, what happened to who, why the idea came up, produce evidence, etc, he could do that, but that's not the point). Just as some of these things run on 'faith', they also run on 'views'. As we may have observed, sometimes, when enough people subscribes to a view, it becomes the 'truth'.

And also, sometimes, things we cannot understand or prove is just something we cannot understand or prove. e.g. there is this man in China who can generate so much heat from his hands that he can cook a fish just holding on to it. There's this Korean master who could hold a spoonful of molten lead in his mouth. I have personally experienced a Tai Chi master who can control electricity from a live wire and allow small 'hair-raising' current to pass on to people holding onto his bare hands (in fact he could vary the current passing through). So maybe it is not too difficult to imagine people who are attuned to finding things (for whatever reasons unexplained, but not necessary paranormal/supernatural). Hey we have Jedi knights who can see into the future with the aid of the 'Force', right?

Ok, I think my thoughts are not coming together in a disciplined manner, so I better stop this verbal diarrhea.

BluErf · 30th April 2005, 02:18 AM

I just read the other thread started by Vinny and regrets that it came to a rather unhappy ending. But anyway, lets not get red-faced and boiling when discussing keris.

I think we read too much into words sometimes (me included), and our emotions inserts 'extra' meaning/insinuation to those words that did not intend to convey those meaning/insinuation.

Studying or collecting keris is about patience and acceptance of diversity (from ideas, context to keris dress and dapur, etc). Lets strive towards these qualities.

Free smiles for everyone today!!!!!!!!!!

Rick · 30th April 2005, 02:32 AM

We need more smiles in our Keris discussions !!

Andrew · 30th April 2005, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

I just read the other thread started by Vinny and regrets that it came to a rather unhappy ending. But anyway, lets not get red-faced and boiling when discussing keris.

I think we read too much into words sometimes (me included), and our emotions inserts 'extra' meaning/insinuation to those words that did not intend to convey those meaning/insinuation.

Studying or collecting keris is about patience and acceptance of diversity (from ideas, context to keris dress and dapur, etc). Lets strive towards these qualities.

Free smiles for everyone today!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers, Kai Wee!

Boedhi Adhitya · 3rd May 2005, 05:43 AM

Greetings...

I would like to share some of my thought about this interesting topic. Thought i'm new to this forum, but i considered myself not new to keris (hopefully

) and have some first-hand-experience, because, lucky me

, i live in Yogyakarta.

1. Why pamor is almost always considered as made from meteorite, especially by the Javanese ? IMHO, it's connected to the making process of the keris itself. While the empu make the keris, he (or she) is considered to act as a priest who marrying the heaven (the meteorite) and the earth (the iron). When the making is done, the picture of pamor on the blade is considered as the heaven's fate for the owner of the keris, so it's very important. If it's not made from meteorite (which is, sad to say, quite often), the sense of "heaven's fate" will be diminished. So, for the Javanese, the pamor is almost always considered as made of meteorite, as it act as the heavens, but for those who studied the keris (even if he is Javanese), it'sn't always meteorite.
For other cultures, "the act of marrying heaven and earth" by the bladesmith might not exist, so the meteorite used in making the blade only considered as the add of beauty and rarity, plus some mystic power, of course

But it's never considered as the heaven's fate for the owner.

2. It's correct that not all the meteorite could be used to make the keris. I had asked this question to Empu Djeno (long before I join this forum off course, not when one of us ask about it

) the last living empu decendant who still make keris in Yogyakarta. He told me once he received order to make a keris from Belgian, who bring his own meteorite. But this meteorite can't stand the forging process. Prambanan meteorite is rich in iron and other metal, which resemble a chunk of metal than a pieces of stone. I've handle one of these which is belongs to Karaton of Yogyakarta for exhibition.

3. Only nem-neman keris made of Prambanan meteorite. For those who want authentic meteorite on it's blade, just run for the nem-neman (young) keris which is made when PB IX or X reigned in Surakarta, or HB VII - VIII reigned in Yogyakarta. Just be carefull, the keris maker in Madura is able today to make the keris almost identically the same as those nem-neman. the pamor is made from nickelous iron (perhaps they read this forum also

) Even Javanesse keris experts have difficulties to identify them. But for those who love the old ones, just relax, The Madura's maker never be able to copy them

4. To identify the material used for pamor by see or touch it is tricky for those who never seen different keris more than 5 a day for a month, even ones who had the chance may still make a mistakes. The elders in Java always said the best way to study keris is to look at it as much as you can get, the more the better, the best if the keris from the first-class quality. The things I can tell you, the meteorite pamor gives more color gradations/hue. It's dark gray, gray, white, and shining metallic-white,(etched or not) all in one. the best way to see it is under the sun ray. The ray from any artificial source will hardly reveal it. it's also sharp to the touch. The prambanan pamor has distinct characteristic, it's exhibit metallic-white and yellowish color. The madura's pamors, usually have pure (and boring) metallic white, not too sharp to the touch. But for the high-quality ones, they add some impurities, so it's more difficult for us to identify. The pamor made from lower grade iron, perhaps high in phosphorus, have a chalk-like dull white color, not sharp to the touch and usually do not stand etching.
5. In the ancient times, there were so many empu, so many style. They made so many kerises, from low grade quality to the high ones. The high ones, were only made by the court's empus. Why ? Because the court had the power to ask best empu in their region to work for them, had the money to bring the best material existed, and the most important, they kept the best work of the earlier empu, so the later, could learn and perfected the work of the earlier, something not possible for the empu outside the court. From my experiences, the pamor of good quality old kerises usually exhibit the characteristic of meteoric pamor (like prambanan ones, minus the yellowish hue), so I think it's save for me to say that it's made of meteorite. If it isn't, the empus might have developed a way to purify nickelous (or titanium, according to Arumbinang research) ore.
I do admit (and hoping) that scientific research on keris metallurgy must be carried over, because so many questions arise around it.

One more thing, it was quite usual for empus to mix several kind of iron and even pamor materials. Because "pamor" word, in Javanese language, came from the word "wor - awor" which mean to mix liberally.

Kiai Carita · 3rd May 2005, 07:53 AM

Hello Gentlemen

, one other peice of information that might help in imagining the keris would come from observing people in Java and Bali preparing offerings for the Unseen. Most offerings have prescribed ingredients and some are difficult to come by. In such cases only a tiny smidgin of the rare ingredient is considered enough as the 'sarat' has been fulfilled. Thus in the world of the keris I would imagine that a smidgin of meteorite of forgable metal could be mixed in with other pamor material, thus fulfilling the 'sarat' and enabling the weddinig of the heaven and the earth to be done by the Mpu. Through a process akin to the thoughts in the world of Western homeopathy the whole of the pamor can then be considered to be from the heavens and the wholeness of the keris as a prayer is manifested.

Some more information for Mr.Hyle

about the intention of keris to be used as weapons, and the idea that the Javanese were taught about keris by monkeys. Mr. Hyle thinks that some keris might have never been intended as weapons. I would propose the opposite, that some keris were made to be able to serve as a material weapons of the last resort, just in case at some desperate moment the bearer had no other choice.

As for the idea that Javanese were taught about keris by the monkeys that was intended as a joke

I was just pointing out a panel from the Prambananan temple not far from where lucky B. Aditya lives. You should go to Yogyakarta and visit him and Mpu Djeno's family, by the way. The monkey thread was a joke made with the intention of pointing out that information from racist Chinese sources or renegade Portugese sailors or even devotional art could not be taken at face value but had to be understood in context to be interpreted usefully.

Indonesian silat also learns moves and systems from animals and the monkey is one of them and my joke about keris being taught by monkeys was not intended to hurt any monkeys in this forum

It is very true that to understand keris one must handle as many keris as possible with the assistance of a knowledgable mentor. An Indonesian keris mailing list is talking about making an international and definitive keris gathering in Bali. This would certainly give an unique opportunity to all keris lovers. Would anyone have an idea how many internationals would be likely to atend such a meeting? Would it be a feasible thing to do? I would be grateful for your ideas Gentlemen.

Salam Keris.

BSMStar · 3rd May 2005, 06:44 PM

I am sorry to have been "asleep at the wheel" on this thread...

Did you know... the earth is growing by an average of 2 tons (4000 lbs or 1816 kilograms) a day? That is how much meteoritic material is reaching the ground daily... not everything "burns up" in the atmosphere - and the majority of the material reaching the ground is in a dust form.

Meteorites have been falling through out the earth's history, so it possible to for someone to go looking around and happen upon an old fall. One question is, did what they find truly have a cosmic origin? Without testing, iron by itself is almost impossible tell if it extraterrestrial or not. I will leave the debate alone as to if a person is "sensitive" or not, that is to say if they can divine the difference.

The real question here is, which came first... did the Prambanan meteorite, from which the association was with heaven - due to it being an observed fall... or an earlier experience with meteorites, which the Prambanan meteorite just offered an opportunity to mass produce blades because of it's size?

It just does not make sense that an Mpu would walk around looking for a rock from heaven before the Prambanan meteorite fall, unless there was a reason to believe there were rocks or iron from heaven lying around? There certainly is no heavenly association with rocks lying on the ground, only an earthly one. That idea or concept had to came from somewhere... unless it too is a myth or legend born after the Prambanan meteorite fall. Was there possibility a heavenly association with iron at one time? Or had witnessed falls occurred before?

30th April 2005, 02:32 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Thanks Blu We need more smiles in our Keris discussions !!

3rd May 2005, 07:53 AM	#7
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	The Idea of Sarat Hello Gentlemen , one other peice of information that might help in imagining the keris would come from observing people in Java and Bali preparing offerings for the Unseen. Most offerings have prescribed ingredients and some are difficult to come by. In such cases only a tiny smidgin of the rare ingredient is considered enough as the 'sarat' has been fulfilled. Thus in the world of the keris I would imagine that a smidgin of meteorite of forgable metal could be mixed in with other pamor material, thus fulfilling the 'sarat' and enabling the weddinig of the heaven and the earth to be done by the Mpu. Through a process akin to the thoughts in the world of Western homeopathy the whole of the pamor can then be considered to be from the heavens and the wholeness of the keris as a prayer is manifested. Some more information for Mr.Hyle about the intention of keris to be used as weapons, and the idea that the Javanese were taught about keris by monkeys. Mr. Hyle thinks that some keris might have never been intended as weapons. I would propose the opposite, that some keris were made to be able to serve as a material weapons of the last resort, just in case at some desperate moment the bearer had no other choice. As for the idea that Javanese were taught about keris by the monkeys that was intended as a joke I was just pointing out a panel from the Prambananan temple not far from where lucky B. Aditya lives. You should go to Yogyakarta and visit him and Mpu Djeno's family, by the way. The monkey thread was a joke made with the intention of pointing out that information from racist Chinese sources or renegade Portugese sailors or even devotional art could not be taken at face value but had to be understood in context to be interpreted usefully. Indonesian silat also learns moves and systems from animals and the monkey is one of them and my joke about keris being taught by monkeys was not intended to hurt any monkeys in this forum It is very true that to understand keris one must handle as many keris as possible with the assistance of a knowledgable mentor. An Indonesian keris mailing list is talking about making an international and definitive keris gathering in Bali. This would certainly give an unique opportunity to all keris lovers. Would anyone have an idea how many internationals would be likely to atend such a meeting? Would it be a feasible thing to do? I would be grateful for your ideas Gentlemen. Salam Keris. Last edited by Kiai Carita; 3rd May 2005 at 07:55 AM. Reason: spelling mistake

29th April 2005, 11:16 PM	#1
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Dear Nechesh, I am glad to hear you are not slagging off the old Mpu. However if you think of the meteorite that have been showering earth since the beginning of time then there must be meteorite in rivers where the surface soil is brought by the waters. If only one gramme of meteorite fell on Java every year since the beginning of time how many tonnes of the stuff would be there when the Mpu's began to take center stage in the 10'th century? You will not need years to be able to practise 'gerak nurani'. You only need a teacher to show you how and in ten minutes you will be able to do it. Find your lost keyes and stuff like that. To get really sensitive however you need longer. ... Also not only nickel containing meteorite can be used as pamor. The idea of nickel is new in kerisology, introduced by the Dutch of the old scientific school. The Javanese never knew the Western metalurgy and they had dozens of names for iron. Salam Keris

30th April 2005, 01:43 AM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Interesting discussion, Gentlemen. I haven't read a series of posts as well written as Kiai Carita's for a while. Thank you and welcome to the forum, Kiai Carita. What I'm going to write is not directly linked to the discussion above, but just some thoughts that arose while reading the posts. While I am not a believer of supernatural or paranormal activities/powers, I do see the point that the keris in totality is anchored in more than the material world. And it is up to the individual how they want to approach the keris. So I would say Nechesh and Kiai Carita are on different sides of the same coin, and finding it difficult to see face-to-face. But that is not to say anyone is right or wrong. The world is made up of all views, just like in order to appreciate the keris, one must look at all physical angles, and then the non-physical aspects too. Some of us are 'irreconciliably' anchored in one aspect, but that is alright. Its our karma and dharma. I think it is as important to consider how the keris is treated and perceived, as it is to look at what it is physically. The keris is a different thing as seen by different eyes, from the local Southeast Asians to the Westerners who 'veni, vidi, vici' centuries past and brought back a whole bunch of kerises to Europe (in a certain way, a fortunate outcome of an unhappy past because some of the most beautiful kerises got preserved immaculately). Anyway, in totality, apart from the physical attributes and composition that make a keris beautiful and/or lethal, the keris has an aspect of mysticism and esoterism that is not so readily shared, understood or seen. However, just because it cannot be seen or proven does not mean it is not there (or there, for that matter). In fact, it may have never been meant to be proven. But not able to prove something does not make the thing less real. An idea/concept/story does not need to be proven. They are. (Well, if someone wants to find the exact origins, what happened to who, why the idea came up, produce evidence, etc, he could do that, but that's not the point). Just as some of these things run on 'faith', they also run on 'views'. As we may have observed, sometimes, when enough people subscribes to a view, it becomes the 'truth'. And also, sometimes, things we cannot understand or prove is just something we cannot understand or prove. e.g. there is this man in China who can generate so much heat from his hands that he can cook a fish just holding on to it. There's this Korean master who could hold a spoonful of molten lead in his mouth. I have personally experienced a Tai Chi master who can control electricity from a live wire and allow small 'hair-raising' current to pass on to people holding onto his bare hands (in fact he could vary the current passing through). So maybe it is not too difficult to imagine people who are attuned to finding things (for whatever reasons unexplained, but not necessary paranormal/supernatural). Hey we have Jedi knights who can see into the future with the aid of the 'Force', right? Ok, I think my thoughts are not coming together in a disciplined manner, so I better stop this verbal diarrhea.

30th April 2005, 02:18 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I just read the other thread started by Vinny and regrets that it came to a rather unhappy ending. But anyway, lets not get red-faced and boiling when discussing keris. I think we read too much into words sometimes (me included), and our emotions inserts 'extra' meaning/insinuation to those words that did not intend to convey those meaning/insinuation. Studying or collecting keris is about patience and acceptance of diversity (from ideas, context to keris dress and dapur, etc). Lets strive towards these qualities. Free smiles for everyone today!!!!!!!!!!

3rd May 2005, 05:43 AM	#6
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Greetings... I would like to share some of my thought about this interesting topic. Thought i'm new to this forum, but i considered myself not new to keris (hopefully ) and have some first-hand-experience, because, lucky me , i live in Yogyakarta. 1. Why pamor is almost always considered as made from meteorite, especially by the Javanese ? IMHO, it's connected to the making process of the keris itself. While the empu make the keris, he (or she) is considered to act as a priest who marrying the heaven (the meteorite) and the earth (the iron). When the making is done, the picture of pamor on the blade is considered as the heaven's fate for the owner of the keris, so it's very important. If it's not made from meteorite (which is, sad to say, quite often), the sense of "heaven's fate" will be diminished. So, for the Javanese, the pamor is almost always considered as made of meteorite, as it act as the heavens, but for those who studied the keris (even if he is Javanese), it'sn't always meteorite. For other cultures, "the act of marrying heaven and earth" by the bladesmith might not exist, so the meteorite used in making the blade only considered as the add of beauty and rarity, plus some mystic power, of course But it's never considered as the heaven's fate for the owner. 2. It's correct that not all the meteorite could be used to make the keris. I had asked this question to Empu Djeno (long before I join this forum off course, not when one of us ask about it ) the last living empu decendant who still make keris in Yogyakarta. He told me once he received order to make a keris from Belgian, who bring his own meteorite. But this meteorite can't stand the forging process. Prambanan meteorite is rich in iron and other metal, which resemble a chunk of metal than a pieces of stone. I've handle one of these which is belongs to Karaton of Yogyakarta for exhibition. 3. Only nem-neman keris made of Prambanan meteorite. For those who want authentic meteorite on it's blade, just run for the nem-neman (young) keris which is made when PB IX or X reigned in Surakarta, or HB VII - VIII reigned in Yogyakarta. Just be carefull, the keris maker in Madura is able today to make the keris almost identically the same as those nem-neman. the pamor is made from nickelous iron (perhaps they read this forum also ) Even Javanesse keris experts have difficulties to identify them. But for those who love the old ones, just relax, The Madura's maker never be able to copy them 4. To identify the material used for pamor by see or touch it is tricky for those who never seen different keris more than 5 a day for a month, even ones who had the chance may still make a mistakes. The elders in Java always said the best way to study keris is to look at it as much as you can get, the more the better, the best if the keris from the first-class quality. The things I can tell you, the meteorite pamor gives more color gradations/hue. It's dark gray, gray, white, and shining metallic-white,(etched or not) all in one. the best way to see it is under the sun ray. The ray from any artificial source will hardly reveal it. it's also sharp to the touch. The prambanan pamor has distinct characteristic, it's exhibit metallic-white and yellowish color. The madura's pamors, usually have pure (and boring) metallic white, not too sharp to the touch. But for the high-quality ones, they add some impurities, so it's more difficult for us to identify. The pamor made from lower grade iron, perhaps high in phosphorus, have a chalk-like dull white color, not sharp to the touch and usually do not stand etching. 5. In the ancient times, there were so many empu, so many style. They made so many kerises, from low grade quality to the high ones. The high ones, were only made by the court's empus. Why ? Because the court had the power to ask best empu in their region to work for them, had the money to bring the best material existed, and the most important, they kept the best work of the earlier empu, so the later, could learn and perfected the work of the earlier, something not possible for the empu outside the court. From my experiences, the pamor of good quality old kerises usually exhibit the characteristic of meteoric pamor (like prambanan ones, minus the yellowish hue), so I think it's save for me to say that it's made of meteorite. If it isn't, the empus might have developed a way to purify nickelous (or titanium, according to Arumbinang research) ore. I do admit (and hoping) that scientific research on keris metallurgy must be carried over, because so many questions arise around it. One more thing, it was quite usual for empus to mix several kind of iron and even pamor materials. Because "pamor" word, in Javanese language, came from the word "wor - awor" which mean to mix liberally.

3rd May 2005, 06:44 PM	#8
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I am sorry to have been "asleep at the wheel" on this thread... Did you know... the earth is growing by an average of 2 tons (4000 lbs or 1816 kilograms) a day? That is how much meteoritic material is reaching the ground daily... not everything "burns up" in the atmosphere - and the majority of the material reaching the ground is in a dust form. Meteorites have been falling through out the earth's history, so it possible to for someone to go looking around and happen upon an old fall. One question is, did what they find truly have a cosmic origin? Without testing, iron by itself is almost impossible tell if it extraterrestrial or not. I will leave the debate alone as to if a person is "sensitive" or not, that is to say if they can divine the difference. The real question here is, which came first... did the Prambanan meteorite, from which the association was with heaven - due to it being an observed fall... or an earlier experience with meteorites, which the Prambanan meteorite just offered an opportunity to mass produce blades because of it's size? It just does not make sense that an Mpu would walk around looking for a rock from heaven before the Prambanan meteorite fall, unless there was a reason to believe there were rocks or iron from heaven lying around? There certainly is no heavenly association with rocks lying on the ground, only an earthly one. That idea or concept had to came from somewhere... unless it too is a myth or legend born after the Prambanan meteorite fall. Was there possibility a heavenly association with iron at one time? Or had witnessed falls occurred before?