Rare Pilipino Swords....

Spunjer · 29th April 2005, 03:16 PM

are visayan swords laminated? any examples?

Ian · 29th April 2005, 08:48 PM

Spunjer:

Hardened edges -- yes, very common.

Laminated blades -- I haven't etched enough Visayan blades to answer how commonly they may be laminated, but my impression is that laminated (pattern-welded) blades are much less common than blades of homogenous steel with an inserted or tempered hardened edge.

Zel probably has the best handle on this question.

Ian.

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 12:42 AM

Traditional Visayan swords I've known are commonly lineal folded steel that has been welded for homogeneity and usually edge-hardened (occasionally spring tempered). Temper lines vary considerably, but stop at or often short of the unsharp shaft at the base of the blade. However, I have seen some (old) ones with inlaid/scarf-welded edges, and currently have a nice big talibon/garab that though I haven't etched it, and may well not, seems to exhibit such. So, yes, they are laminated, though it may depend on what you mean by laminated, and seems to vary with time, if nothing else.

Ian · 30th April 2005, 02:09 AM

Well put. That was what I was trying to say.

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 03:01 AM

I'd love to know more, especially re the scarf welded edges; are they the older way, as we might expect? Are they seen on mandau? the scarf-welded chiselground blade, often with an overall wedge section is common on Japanese work knives, and I gather it was once seen on Japanese fighting swords, so there seems to be some sort of Oceanic E Asian thing going on (reference the tangs, too, BTW; and when one looks at spears and floormats and much other material culture along the interface of Asia and Pacific one sees a relation.........of course?); I have a feeling that this may be a thing that once was common in places where it modernly is not, but that's all I have; speculation and knowledge from swords and possibly from dimly remembered sailors' and/or collectors' tales re the ancestralness of the c-bevel and/or scarfed-edge blade............

Spunjer · 30th April 2005, 05:48 AM

Quote:

...it may depend on what you mean by laminated, and seems to vary with time, if nothing else.

tom, what i mean when i say laminated, something similar to a moro sword, particularly the barung.
could you please elaborate more on this statement: "commonly lineal folded steel that has been welded for homogeneity and usually edge-hardened ". does that mean that if i etch a blade that has that characteristic, what i would get is a very dark edge, almost black, and the rest of the blade is gray, without those "topographic" lines?

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 11:09 AM

More or less. Steel that has been welded for homogeneity, basically simply folded steel, does exhibit layers, even if intially folded up from a single piece (which is not traditionally usual, but I think is seen with swords made from springs, for instance); the fire alters the alloy at the surface of the billet, so the dividing lines can be found, and of course you will see them where there are welding flaws etc, but A/ it will often take a lot of etching, and B/ what was B? Dang, there was B......B/fine layers will often appear as a small-grained lineal fibrousness, almost similar to the inside of rattan.
Moro swords, though less-so kris sundang, are often much like this, too, with a temper line, but the welding is done, for technological and/or aesthetic reasons, for contrast/difference; to leave layers of differing alloys which still retain their individual natures/alloys/properties, and that are easily seen from an etch. Other Moro blades I've seen have inlaid edges, or occasionally panelled construction (like Turkish or medieval German(nic) swords), and some such macro-lamination (with a crosswise temper line that's often visible only in the edge steel, the rest often being unhardenable) appears usual on old kris sundang. So there are two very seperable issues here; micro-lamination (ie. folding or patterning in the steel) which can be done for homogeneity or for contrast; and macro-lamination, which is the joining of larger pieces to form a blade, usually with the idea of using their various properties in appropriate areas, but occasionally for size. Typically the macro laminated SE Asian blade is made of micro laminated pieces, but not always, of course, especially the edge (bit) which is likely more often/earlier imported industrial steel than would be whole blades.

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 01:22 PM

Once I got a double temper line etching a Visayan sword and I don't know what to say about it. There is a narrow stripe at the edge that's dark, and then a wider stipe that's less dark, and then the paler "base" colour, if I may. Sometimes it's hard to tell weld lines from temper lines, but hese lines do not coincide with the grain of the metal.

tom hyle · 13th March 2011, 01:57 PM

My garab definitely has a scarf-welded edge. ModernVisayan swords tend to be homogenous steel with a differential temper. Interesting thread found while searching for machete filipiana......

Battara · 13th March 2011, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

ModernVisayan swords tend to be homogenous steel with a differential temper.

I have found this too on turn of the century Visayan pieces as well.......

30th April 2005, 02:09 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	Thanks Tom ... Well put. That was what I was trying to say.

30th April 2005, 11:09 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	More or less. Steel that has been welded for homogeneity, basically simply folded steel, does exhibit layers, even if intially folded up from a single piece (which is not traditionally usual, but I think is seen with swords made from springs, for instance); the fire alters the alloy at the surface of the billet, so the dividing lines can be found, and of course you will see them where there are welding flaws etc, but A/ it will often take a lot of etching, and B/ what was B? Dang, there was B......B/fine layers will often appear as a small-grained lineal fibrousness, almost similar to the inside of rattan. Moro swords, though less-so kris sundang, are often much like this, too, with a temper line, but the welding is done, for technological and/or aesthetic reasons, for contrast/difference; to leave layers of differing alloys which still retain their individual natures/alloys/properties, and that are easily seen from an etch. Other Moro blades I've seen have inlaid edges, or occasionally panelled construction (like Turkish or medieval German(nic) swords), and some such macro-lamination (with a crosswise temper line that's often visible only in the edge steel, the rest often being unhardenable) appears usual on old kris sundang. So there are two very seperable issues here; micro-lamination (ie. folding or patterning in the steel) which can be done for homogeneity or for contrast; and macro-lamination, which is the joining of larger pieces to form a blade, usually with the idea of using their various properties in appropriate areas, but occasionally for size. Typically the macro laminated SE Asian blade is made of micro laminated pieces, but not always, of course, especially the edge (bit) which is likely more often/earlier imported industrial steel than would be whole blades. Last edited by tom hyle; 30th April 2005 at 11:28 AM.

29th April 2005, 03:16 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	are visayan swords laminated? any examples?

29th April 2005, 08:48 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	Spunjer: Hardened edges -- yes, very common. Laminated blades -- I haven't etched enough Visayan blades to answer how commonly they may be laminated, but my impression is that laminated (pattern-welded) blades are much less common than blades of homogenous steel with an inserted or tempered hardened edge. Zel probably has the best handle on this question. Ian.

30th April 2005, 12:42 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Traditional Visayan swords I've known are commonly lineal folded steel that has been welded for homogeneity and usually edge-hardened (occasionally spring tempered). Temper lines vary considerably, but stop at or often short of the unsharp shaft at the base of the blade. However, I have seen some (old) ones with inlaid/scarf-welded edges, and currently have a nice big talibon/garab that though I haven't etched it, and may well not, seems to exhibit such. So, yes, they are laminated, though it may depend on what you mean by laminated, and seems to vary with time, if nothing else.

30th April 2005, 03:01 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'd love to know more, especially re the scarf welded edges; are they the older way, as we might expect? Are they seen on mandau? the scarf-welded chiselground blade, often with an overall wedge section is common on Japanese work knives, and I gather it was once seen on Japanese fighting swords, so there seems to be some sort of Oceanic E Asian thing going on (reference the tangs, too, BTW; and when one looks at spears and floormats and much other material culture along the interface of Asia and Pacific one sees a relation.........of course?); I have a feeling that this may be a thing that once was common in places where it modernly is not, but that's all I have; speculation and knowledge from swords and possibly from dimly remembered sailors' and/or collectors' tales re the ancestralness of the c-bevel and/or scarfed-edge blade............

30th April 2005, 01:22 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Once I got a double temper line etching a Visayan sword and I don't know what to say about it. There is a narrow stripe at the edge that's dark, and then a wider stipe that's less dark, and then the paler "base" colour, if I may. Sometimes it's hard to tell weld lines from temper lines, but hese lines do not coincide with the grain of the metal.

13th March 2011, 01:57 PM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	My garab definitely has a scarf-welded edge. ModernVisayan swords tend to be homogenous steel with a differential temper. Interesting thread found while searching for machete filipiana......