Were Rapiers used in Combat?

sirupate · 7th May 2009, 11:09 AM

I remember reading some where that the military rapeirs were of a sturdier build, this probably did not apply to high ranking Officers mind.

Hello Jim

Quote:

I think one great example of this is that accounts of the death of Magellan describes him being killed by an Islander with what is presumed to be a 'kampilan'. We can only presume this refers to the type of sword we now know in the Philippines, but perhaps several hundred years ago it meant another form altogether.

When I was in Cebu a couple of years back, they (Cacoy Doce Pares World Federation) didn't believe it was the Kampilan, they believe that it was a large club, that was probably used for grinding food stuffs.

kisak · 8th May 2009, 04:06 PM

Regarding this bit about heavy war-rapiers and light civilian version, how is the distribution between light and heavy? Do we have two somewhat distinct groups, or is is perhaps just a bell-curve from light to heavy, with the lighter ones being more likely to see civilian use, and the heavier ones more likely to see military use? And what differences we have, how much of these existed in a single point in time, and how much is due to developments over time? Many cup-hilts for example would seem to be considerable later than the majority of swept-hilts.

Basically, I'm not entirely convinced yet that speaking of the civilian and military ones as fully separate categories is entirely suitable, at least not for slightly earlier times (say, 16th to mid 17th century for a rough guess at a suitable time period there). Looking at things like officer's scarf swords, it may not be necessarily so that lighter swords indicate civilian use with any greater probability, at least not in all time periods.

These aren't areas I've looked into nearly enough, but hopefully it'll be a few decent questions at least.

Paul Macdonald · 8th May 2009, 05:35 PM

Hi Folks,

It seems like broadsword, rapier is a very general term of sword description that can cover many different tools designed for different jobs.

Most sword types can be defined firstly not by the hilt form, but by blade.

A pappenheimer rapier hilt may be mounted to either a broadsword blade or a thrusting rapier blade, and both create different handling weapons for different specific jobs.
One would then be classed as a rapier hilted broadsword, and the other as simply a rapier.

Specific blade choice is down to environment and what we are likely to face.

For practical battlefield use, then we are likely to face broadswords, short hangars and polearms. Best carry a broadsword or backsword blade.
For civilian duel, the lighter, faster thrusting blade serves better for fencing use. For streetfight, somewhere between the two is ideal, as on the street in the C17th, we can likely face either rapier or broadsword.

It was not unusual for military men (above the station of being issued with a munition grade weapon) to commission a stout broad or backsword blade, but mounted to a rapier hilt. A good rapier hilt still provides adequate hand protection against cuts, but this weapon is now a rapier hilted broadsword.

This is a very different tool to the longer, thinner rapier blades that are primarily designed and forged for the civilian duel or streetfight.

The civilian rapier blade through the C17th evolved by it`s own branch of development independently from the broadsword and backsword blades, which have always been employed for martial military field use.

Hope this helps

Macdonald

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2009, 08:18 PM

Fantastic discussion going here, and Kisak those are excellent observations on the variance between civilian and military swords, and extremely well versed questions.
I think Paul's response beautifully explains the terminology ,and how our understanding of the classifications of these forms can be quite challenging without qualification in descriptive reference. I really enjoy the patiently detailed explanations on the dynamics of these weapons, which as a complete lay person regarding fencing, helps me understand much more!

Simon, thank you for joining us here on this, and for the clarification on that reference on the kampilan. I used the analogy without consulting any of the actual material, just from recollection. When I checked later, it seems that the 'kampilan' reference was more presumed from later writers, and the actual weapon type remains unknown.

Thanks very much gentlemen,
All the best,
Jim

fearn · 9th May 2009, 02:13 AM

Dumb question here, Paul.

I won't dispute the idea that a broadsword is better for multiple opponents. My question is whether a rapier blade, particularly a heavy one, is better at going through armor, at least light armor.

F

Paul Macdonald · 9th May 2009, 11:13 AM

Hi Fearn,

No such thing as dumb questions, only dumb answers

Rapier blades are designed to oppose unarmoured opponents wearing either shirt sleeves or civilian street wear (shirt , waistcoat, doublet).
It will run a man through in these for sure, and likely even light - mid weight leather, but any heavier than this (such as buff coat leather), and I would doubt the effectiveness of a rapier blade for piercing.
Against steel armour of any kind, no chance.

Best tool for sticking leather armour or steel armour gaps in close is a sturdy dagger.

Hope this helps

Macdonald

Dmitry · 23rd August 2010, 07:47 PM

A good example of the rapier-mounted broadsword is the accumulation of multiple examples with nearly identical hilts, which were carried by the Bodyguard of the Electors of Saxony in the late 1600s-early 1700s.
These blades are uniformely beefy cut-and-thrust type, which would probably break an average civilian rapier blade with one blow.
I believe this is the exact type of sword that was often painted on the equestrian portraits of various European military commanders, nobility and rulers of the 1600s.

8th May 2009, 04:06 PM	#2
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Regarding this bit about heavy war-rapiers and light civilian version, how is the distribution between light and heavy? Do we have two somewhat distinct groups, or is is perhaps just a bell-curve from light to heavy, with the lighter ones being more likely to see civilian use, and the heavier ones more likely to see military use? And what differences we have, how much of these existed in a single point in time, and how much is due to developments over time? Many cup-hilts for example would seem to be considerable later than the majority of swept-hilts. Basically, I'm not entirely convinced yet that speaking of the civilian and military ones as fully separate categories is entirely suitable, at least not for slightly earlier times (say, 16th to mid 17th century for a rough guess at a suitable time period there). Looking at things like officer's scarf swords, it may not be necessarily so that lighter swords indicate civilian use with any greater probability, at least not in all time periods. These aren't areas I've looked into nearly enough, but hopefully it'll be a few decent questions at least.

8th May 2009, 05:35 PM	#3
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Hi Folks, It seems like broadsword, rapier is a very general term of sword description that can cover many different tools designed for different jobs. Most sword types can be defined firstly not by the hilt form, but by blade. A pappenheimer rapier hilt may be mounted to either a broadsword blade or a thrusting rapier blade, and both create different handling weapons for different specific jobs. One would then be classed as a rapier hilted broadsword, and the other as simply a rapier. Specific blade choice is down to environment and what we are likely to face. For practical battlefield use, then we are likely to face broadswords, short hangars and polearms. Best carry a broadsword or backsword blade. For civilian duel, the lighter, faster thrusting blade serves better for fencing use. For streetfight, somewhere between the two is ideal, as on the street in the C17th, we can likely face either rapier or broadsword. It was not unusual for military men (above the station of being issued with a munition grade weapon) to commission a stout broad or backsword blade, but mounted to a rapier hilt. A good rapier hilt still provides adequate hand protection against cuts, but this weapon is now a rapier hilted broadsword. This is a very different tool to the longer, thinner rapier blades that are primarily designed and forged for the civilian duel or streetfight. The civilian rapier blade through the C17th evolved by it`s own branch of development independently from the broadsword and backsword blades, which have always been employed for martial military field use. Hope this helps Macdonald

8th May 2009, 08:18 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Fantastic discussion going here, and Kisak those are excellent observations on the variance between civilian and military swords, and extremely well versed questions. I think Paul's response beautifully explains the terminology ,and how our understanding of the classifications of these forms can be quite challenging without qualification in descriptive reference. I really enjoy the patiently detailed explanations on the dynamics of these weapons, which as a complete lay person regarding fencing, helps me understand much more! Simon, thank you for joining us here on this, and for the clarification on that reference on the kampilan. I used the analogy without consulting any of the actual material, just from recollection. When I checked later, it seems that the 'kampilan' reference was more presumed from later writers, and the actual weapon type remains unknown. Thanks very much gentlemen, All the best, Jim

9th May 2009, 02:13 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Dumb question here, Paul. I won't dispute the idea that a broadsword is better for multiple opponents. My question is whether a rapier blade, particularly a heavy one, is better at going through armor, at least light armor. F

9th May 2009, 11:13 AM	#6
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Hi Fearn, No such thing as dumb questions, only dumb answers Rapier blades are designed to oppose unarmoured opponents wearing either shirt sleeves or civilian street wear (shirt , waistcoat, doublet). It will run a man through in these for sure, and likely even light - mid weight leather, but any heavier than this (such as buff coat leather), and I would doubt the effectiveness of a rapier blade for piercing. Against steel armour of any kind, no chance. Best tool for sticking leather armour or steel armour gaps in close is a sturdy dagger. Hope this helps Macdonald

23rd August 2010, 07:47 PM	#7
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	A good example of the rapier-mounted broadsword is the accumulation of multiple examples with nearly identical hilts, which were carried by the Bodyguard of the Electors of Saxony in the late 1600s-early 1700s. These blades are uniformely beefy cut-and-thrust type, which would probably break an average civilian rapier blade with one blow. I believe this is the exact type of sword that was often painted on the equestrian portraits of various European military commanders, nobility and rulers of the 1600s.