Popularity of 'katar' shapes?

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Katars blade geometry are really not conducive to slashing the last few inches of the blade are quite thick with no real edge. The reason you see more straight blades is that they were more functional at punching through chain mail.

Thanks, but still, that confuses me.... why practice a lot of slashing moves when your main move is a punch? Is it because many went without armor of any sort (in the areas where slashes were practiced)? Is hacking away at the opponent just a way to overwhelm his defense and go in for the jab, or a throw followed up by a finishing punch...?

[KuKulzA28]

Here's another picture of a Kalaripayattu training place with curved katars



It seems more common than straight ones. Granted this is kalaripyattu, a martial art from Kerala. Perhaps the people of northern and central India used straight katars more? I say this because in all the searching I have done on Shastar Vidiya and Gatka have come up with mainly straight dagger-like katars.

Check the videos near the bottom of page

It appears to be used by Nidar Singh Nihang (along with another dagger) as a "main-gauche" of sorts. It seems like a good close-quarters and bridging weapon in combination with a sword. On the battlefield it was probably secondary to longer ranged weapons like spears, bows, swords, and matchlocks.
I imagine in the old days, in city streets and alleys, a katar alone would be a formidable close-in fighting weapon in a martial world with a plethora of knives, daggers, claws, fighting bracelets, etc.

[KuKulzA28]

bump in case any jamdhar or Indian weaponry specialist comes along

[Jim McDougall]

While extremely limited in my understanding of most martial arts, the katar is a most interesting weapon, which we have discussed considerably over the years. It seems that the armour piercing (malle perce) feature of strengthed tip is considered more prevalent in areas to the north where chain mail was more typically present. In the central and southern regions, such armour, while certainly nominally present, was not as common, so armour piercing weapons were not typical either.

The katar itself, much as the pata, its sword length counterpart, the gauntlet sword, was initially and more commonly a slashing weapon. The Mahrattas, one of the earlier groups generally held to have been among the earliest users of these weapons, are known for thier slashing preference with edged weapons, and typically were against the use of the thrust.

It is my understanding that among the earliest katars, especially those in Mahratta regions to the west, cut down European blades were used in them. While straight blades of course, they certainly would not have been for armour piercing any more than the original sword blade was, and the slashing cuts probably parallel to any other straight blades use.

I havent looked further into notes on these curved blade examples yet, but I would be inclined to think of them as to the northwest, and perhaps favored as a hunting type weapon. It is known that in these regions, among Mughals and Rajputs, to hunt tigers etc. with the katar was a pronounced mark of bravery, and the curved, uptick blade is in my understanding for a thrust and upward tear.
OTH, the curved blade as seen it seems in the slashing sense does, in the same effect as a sabre in providing more cutting surface in the movement of the cut.
Just cursory thoughts, and I hope they might be of some use.

All the best,
Jim

[KuKulzA28]

Thanks. It is interesting you note regional armor-usage and Mahratta preference for slashing in their fighting, I'll keep those two things in mind as I keep looking at different katars!

It's just fascinating to see how different Indian martial arts use the same type of weapon very differently...

[ariel]

The manner of holding katars as well as their frequent feature of reinforced tips ostensibly suggests exclusively ( or, at least, mainly) stabbing purpose. However, their long relative, Pata, was an exclusively slashing weapon. Jim is also correct in pointing out the widespread use of european blades,- thin and flexible, with (often) rounded tips, not suitable for stabbing, especially through the armor.
As a matter of fact, katars are quite handy slashing weapons: just grab one and try :-)
Even if their original purpose was stabbing ( see Elgood's book with photographs of statues), it was inevitable for their slashing ability to be emphasized in the creation of curved blades.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Kukulz,
I would like to thank you for opening this great topic for discussion, and you have indeed piqued my curiosity! Frankly, though we have discussed katars many times through the years, and the obvious selection of curved vs. the prevalent straight blades has not as far as I know, been considered.

I have looked through most of the extant resources, which offer no tangible explanation for blade variations, though noting the examples typically catalogued or pictured, the blades are indeed most often straight. The resources I looked into were "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (Robert Elgood); "Indian Arms and Armour" (G.N.Pant); "Traditional Weapons of India" (E.Jaiwent Paul); and of course the venerable Egerton reference.

In previous discussions of the development of the pata, the well known 'gauntlet' sword, it seems generally held that these evolved from the katar. What remains uncertain is the origin and development of the katar itself, and one of the most unusual references is in Stone, showing a curious weapon claimed c.15th century, 'Moorish', and termed the 'manople'. This is a gauntlet type weapon with straight blade and blades parallel on either side of the central larger blade, giving it a trident effect. For a time, this curious weapon was somewhat entertained as a potential proto-katar/pata, but later discovered that Stone had perpetuated an error from earlier cataloguing of the Armeria Real in Madrid (Jubinal, c.1840), and that this was simply a version of pata with unclear provenance. The resemblance to the trident (trisula) of Shiva is clear evidence of Indian influence, or possibly even provenance.

Whatever the case, it remains that most katar blades are straight, with those of primarily Mahratta origin with cut down European sword blades, in the west, to the hooded hand guard examples of Tanjore, to the east. The preponderance of katars of the most commonly seen form, and with reinforced armor piercing tip, seem to be from the northern regions with Rajput and Sikh provenance. In Egerton, the captions reflect provenance for most of these from Lahore, Patiala, and Punjab, all northern regions.

To the south of these regions is Gujerat and Kach, where the rather distinct hilt of the so called 'Garsoe' katar is found, again typically straight blades.
In these regions, the katar is a profound symbol, where in Kathiwar and the Kattee people swear oaths and agreements on its blade.

In Pant, there is mention of a katar with curved blade in the Prince of Wales Museum in Bombay (p.170) and it is stated of 17th century and Maratha, curiously noting it is thickened at the tip, which seems atypical with the known use of slashing cuts employed by them. Perhaps a suggestion that the katar may have developed in the north in Rajput regions as often suggested?
However, it should be noted that Pant often seems quite liberal in his assignment of period, and items referenced from many museums are from provenances that seem, in my opinion, seriously clouded.

Pant also cites a curved blade example of late 17th century from Delhi (p.170, fig. 527) with a blade recurved in 'bichwa' form. It is important to note that in Pant, the katar is referred to by the apparantly proper term, 'jamadhar' which is the word describing this weapon in Indian language. The katar term is believed to have become misapplied in the Egerton work, and became a collectors reference to the transverse hilt 'punch daggers'.
It is so soundly entrenched as the descriptive term in place, it would only be counterproductive and confusing to try to correct this error at this point.

With this overview, I have added simply for the benefit of general readers and those not already familiar with all of this information, I think it would be interesting to continue the discussion of the query Kukulz has posed.

Although there are seemingly few examples of curved bladed katars, what would compel the choice of these blades? We know that the manner of use may be of course, the key factor, and that most katars familiar to us are the northern versions with reinforced armour piercing tip. We also know that the bichwa daggers with recurved blades were a popularly chosen form, and perhaps if I recall, somewhat regional. Possibly regions favoring the bichwa may be of some association to curved blade katars?

I do hope others out there will join in with thier ideas, as I think Kukulz has presented a most astutely observed question, and this is our opportunity to learn more on these familiar, yet apparantly under researched weapons.

All very best regards,
Jim