Help Identify this Sword

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2009, 08:42 PM

As Kisak has observed, this sword appears to be a fraternal type sword of the 19th century. Actually I have discussed this sword with Tom in some degree already, and asked him to post it here as I would like to initiate some interest in this very esoteric area of collecting.

The sword hilt itself is of the general form that seems to have derived from military swords of the Civil War, in this case, the U.S. M1840 NCO sword, which had nearly identical hilt with knights head pommel, same style crossguard and fluted ivory grips. The Ames Sword co., who produced these, went into the production of the fraternal and Masonic style swords that developed from them in the years after the war. In addition to the well established Masonic groups and fraternal groups, there were many post military regimental organizations and patriotic groups.

In a phone conversation today with Mr. Joe Marino, one of the authors of the comprehensive book "The American Fraternal Sword" (2008), we discussed this particular acronym, which does not correspond to any of the known groups catalogued thus far. In years of research, he and his co-authors compiled the collections and data that reflect the amazing numbers of these types of groups.
It is known that outfitting companies and producers of regalia interchanged these almost universal hilt components, sich as the knights head pommel, crossguard and so on. The blades were often imported, such as this Solingen blade from latter 19th c.

It would seem that the most likely means of discovering the title of the group indicated by this acronym, D.O.S.R. may come from research in local history of the area where this was found. Perhaps this was a preliminary title for a group later known under another title. As suggestions for the words, possibly something like democratic order of the sons of the revolution or to that effect. There seem to have been many similar titles.

One of the key producers of fraternal type swords was the Frank Henderson Co. of Kalamazoo, Michigan from 1850-through 1893, when they began working with the Ames Co. This illustrates the possibility of using Ames components from the militia and non commissioned officers swords.

While these swords have often been considerably disregarded as they are clearly ceremonial and costume elements rather than weapons, they have developed a distinct sector of thier own in collecting with their fascinating associations in Americana. One of the foremost authorities on Americana, Mr. Norm Flayderman, wrote the foreward in Mr. Marino's book, probably one of the most stellar endorsements for anyone studying this field.

We'll continue researching!!!

Welcome to our forum Tom! and thank you for posting this!!

All very best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 28th April 2009, 02:09 AM

Hi All, its been awhile

,

I can't add much to what Jim has already printed, but, its not a one off. Here is another in better shape.

http://flintlocksarsenal.blogspot.com/2008/09/dosr.html

I would be looking for a possible German-American Organization?

I hope this helps
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2009, 02:57 AM

WOW! Hey Jeff, there you are, I thought the UFO's got ya!!!!

Tom, I told ya, these guys are good!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 28th April 2009, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

WOW! Hey Jeff, there you are, I thought the UFO's got ya!!!!

Hi Jim, worse than UFO's.... work

. Could be worse though. I did a quick google and think this may help. I think it is a German American group in Columbus Ohio ? Note the Gothic DOSR. Hopefully this will get Tom started.

All the Best
Jeff

Tom · 28th April 2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

WOW! Hey Jeff, there you are, I thought the UFO's got ya!!!!

Tom, I told ya, these guys are good!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Yes, very good, I have searched the net over and I never found anything close.
Even with the info provided which I greatly appreciate, I still am lost, sorry, I'm just a dumb'ol country boy searching and not really knowing what to search for.
so far we know the sword is a 19th century sword, correct?

Will it ever be possible to know how this sword ended up in the mud of my home town of Pocomoke's river?
How it may have made it's way here. etc.
Was it dropped from Jeff's UFO? LOL J/K

Thanks Guys this is fascinating to me

Jeff D · 28th April 2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom

Yes, very good, I have searched the net over and I never found anything close.
Even with the info provided which I greatly appreciate, I still am lost, sorry, I'm just a dumb'ol country boy searching and not really knowing what to search for.
so far we know the sword is a 19th century sword, correct?

Will it ever be possible to know how this sword ended up in the mud of my home town of Pocomoke's river?
How it may have made it's way here. etc.
Was it dropped from Jeff's UFO? LOL J/K

Thanks Guys this is fascinating to me

Hi Tom,

I doubt you will ever find how it got there if you don't know where it started. Even then, the odds are against you. It is exactly these puzzles that keep most of us fascinated with these historic objects. Rent the movie 'The Red Violin'. Building up a story of the objects "life" is the goal of most of us here. I think you may have been bitten by the bug

.

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2009, 05:20 PM

Hi Jeff,
Excellent suggestion on the foreign fraternity groups, which I had not even thought of. The immigration in those post Civil War years well into the 1920's was unbelievable in volume, with so many nationalities represented. I know that some of my own relatives were among them in the 1870's and 80's.
Great movie too!!! "The Red Violin" , I loved that movie and that really is what its all about, what an item has to tell you, the stories of its own history. As I watched that movie intently I realized that what we do is essentially antique weapon forensics

Tom,
Did you receive my email ?

All best regards,
Jim

Tom · 28th April 2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Tom,
Did you receive my email ?

All best regards,
Jim

I did, Thank you and I will follow up as soon as I can.

katana · 28th April 2009, 09:21 PM

Here is a mention of the initials, unfortunately the links to the pictures do not work

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Regards David

28th April 2009, 02:09 AM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, its been awhile , I can't add much to what Jim has already printed, but, its not a one off. Here is another in better shape. http://flintlocksarsenal.blogspot.com/2008/09/dosr.html I would be looking for a possible German-American Organization? I hope this helps Jeff Last edited by Jeff D; 28th April 2009 at 02:19 AM.

27th April 2009, 08:42 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,294	As Kisak has observed, this sword appears to be a fraternal type sword of the 19th century. Actually I have discussed this sword with Tom in some degree already, and asked him to post it here as I would like to initiate some interest in this very esoteric area of collecting. The sword hilt itself is of the general form that seems to have derived from military swords of the Civil War, in this case, the U.S. M1840 NCO sword, which had nearly identical hilt with knights head pommel, same style crossguard and fluted ivory grips. The Ames Sword co., who produced these, went into the production of the fraternal and Masonic style swords that developed from them in the years after the war. In addition to the well established Masonic groups and fraternal groups, there were many post military regimental organizations and patriotic groups. In a phone conversation today with Mr. Joe Marino, one of the authors of the comprehensive book "The American Fraternal Sword" (2008), we discussed this particular acronym, which does not correspond to any of the known groups catalogued thus far. In years of research, he and his co-authors compiled the collections and data that reflect the amazing numbers of these types of groups. It is known that outfitting companies and producers of regalia interchanged these almost universal hilt components, sich as the knights head pommel, crossguard and so on. The blades were often imported, such as this Solingen blade from latter 19th c. It would seem that the most likely means of discovering the title of the group indicated by this acronym, D.O.S.R. may come from research in local history of the area where this was found. Perhaps this was a preliminary title for a group later known under another title. As suggestions for the words, possibly something like democratic order of the sons of the revolution or to that effect. There seem to have been many similar titles. One of the key producers of fraternal type swords was the Frank Henderson Co. of Kalamazoo, Michigan from 1850-through 1893, when they began working with the Ames Co. This illustrates the possibility of using Ames components from the militia and non commissioned officers swords. While these swords have often been considerably disregarded as they are clearly ceremonial and costume elements rather than weapons, they have developed a distinct sector of thier own in collecting with their fascinating associations in Americana. One of the foremost authorities on Americana, Mr. Norm Flayderman, wrote the foreward in Mr. Marino's book, probably one of the most stellar endorsements for anyone studying this field. We'll continue researching!!! Welcome to our forum Tom! and thank you for posting this!! All very best regards, Jim

28th April 2009, 02:57 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,294	WOW! Hey Jeff, there you are, I thought the UFO's got ya!!!! Tom, I told ya, these guys are good!!!! All the best, Jim

28th April 2009, 05:20 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,294	Hi Jeff, Excellent suggestion on the foreign fraternity groups, which I had not even thought of. The immigration in those post Civil War years well into the 1920's was unbelievable in volume, with so many nationalities represented. I know that some of my own relatives were among them in the 1870's and 80's. Great movie too!!! "The Red Violin" , I loved that movie and that really is what its all about, what an item has to tell you, the stories of its own history. As I watched that movie intently I realized that what we do is essentially antique weapon forensics Tom, Did you receive my email ? All best regards, Jim

28th April 2009, 09:21 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Here is a mention of the initials, unfortunately the links to the pictures do not work http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=uk Regards David