Tulwar-hilted kukri information

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Your comments, and the reinforcing qualifications noted by Simon are certainly putting these Nepalese weapons in perspective. I have always been under the impression that the kukri probably derived indirectly from the ancient kopis of the Greeks via a number of early weapons in India. I think these are reflected in varying degree in Indian iconography such as found in Ajanta.

Jim, I am very interested in the khukris. My first post here was related to one of my own. There is a book from Fernando Quesada Sanz, La Falcata, Arma y Símbolo, in which an analysis is made about the use of the term 'kopis' in the ancient sources. It demostrates that the use of this term is ambiguos and many times is referred to a different kind of weapons. Anyway, the use of the kopis seems not to be much extended in the greek armies, and there is but a few icinographic representations from this period. In the other hand, Alexander only arrived to the Indus, or not far from there, and its passing seems ephimeral. Other thing is the hellenistic presence in northern part of India, in Central Asia, but the influence shuould be seen otherwise in the indian vicinity of this area. Ajanta is far from there, and I never saw this representation to judge the similarities, have you? Have any in this forum? Can we see it to judge? All we have in this respect, is the statement of a 19th Century author pretending to establish the origin of this weapon on an european one. Based only in the use of a down curved blade, which maybe (and I don't make a definitive statement, because it cannot be done to this moment) had a more older african use, if not origin. I seriouly doubt something as simple as a down curved blade has to have only one origin, as it was a unique and oustanding invention.

As with the rest of the european 'influences' we talked about in the past, we need more clear evidences to state a probable cause (not only possible, but probable) of their existence, and sometimes, in the absence of material proof, we have to use the historical context of the weapons studied and dig deep in the cultures. It is far more academic (and interesting) than ID some known type of weapon and put it in a timeframe. I don't deny the existence of this influences, but I think we have to restraint fantasy and speculation to frame this discussions in the strict facts of history and archaeology, if we pretend to be serious students of this kind of weapons. And I know you like the historical analysis.

I only have seen the sculptoric images of down curved swords in the book from J. Paul, Traditional Weapons of India. They come from South India, and they do not look in anyway reminiscent of a kopis, not even in the form of the down curved blade, but in the fact that is down curved. It seems that down curved blades are originally often related to agricultural work and they could be independently developed in several places. And, if we accept the aryan theory, we can also speculate if this kind of weapon or tool was originally carried by this group, which supposedly conquered part of India.

I expect not to be wandering (too much), and I apology in advance for my mistakes in spelling.

My best regards

Gonzalo

[sirupate]

Hello Gav,

I cannot claim full credit for observation, I had noticed it and thought it odd when initially reading this posting but through conversations with another collector about this thread, it reinforced my views.

Is this collector not part of this Forum?

Could you please elaborate on this history of the possible kukri origins and that of the Kora if it is also from this point in time?

We are currentley working on the origins of the kukri, so no real info yet, as for the khuda its not something I have been overly concerned with, but my interest has ben aroused with this thread.

Hello Jim,

'khuda' easily was transliterated into 'kora'

I doubt it, I have been in contact with three top Nepalese historians since this thread started, and one of them has come back with the spelling 'khunda' as the correct spelling, and yet in the National museum its spelt as khuda!

I would like to know about the shape of the kora blade tip and its dual concave curves, and what it might represent.

According to two of the historians, no religious signifigance at all to the khunda, its shape simply owes itself to its effective cutting power.

Brian Farwell (author of "The Gurkhas") mentioned that there were instances of these tough warriors using 'khuda' despite the kukri being the weapon of standard use and issue.

I believe in Byron Farwell's book he only refers the Khunda when used in the Dashian festival 'The man selected to do the deed was armed with a razor-sharp, outsized kukri called a khanra' which seems to be an almost a phonetic spelling.
Certainley in the old days Gorkha troops used the khunda, but in referance to Gurkhas using it in the early days before regulation, I asked a Gurkha historian who said that he had not heard of it, but that it might have happened, this was also the thoughts of another historian as well.

Hello Jonathan,

In my expierience of the Nepal national museam, collecters

You didn't speak to any collectors in Nepal

The kukri & the Kora are both regarded as Nepali national weapons in Nepal

The khunda is certainley recognised as a weapon that was used a lot in olden times, but as a National weapon per say, I don't think so, however I have asked about this and I will pass on the views of the Historians when I recieve their replies. Its certainley not the National weapon of Nepal, the kukri is.

Many soldiers , civil servants, entrenapurs & indeed Officers brought back tourist pieces of many types for wall decoration even up to & after ww2.

That is certainley not my experience of Officers and Soldiers that fought in wars, the ones I know and have spoken only had the real thing, for example David Harland (died a month ago) a friend of my fathers, who was with the Gurkhas as a Captain in WWII, only brought back the Japanese sword he had surrendered to him, my Uncle Charlie from WWI had a dagger that he took of a dead German that he had killed etc. However entrepreneurs might be a whole different thing!

Hello Gonzalo'

For above all the diversity of the ethnic groups existing in actual Nepal since long time ago, no one seems to have developed the khukri before the arrival of the indians. Or is it?

Might well be

In the other hand, Alexander only arrived to the Indus, or not far from there, and its passing seems ephimeral.

It is certainley not uncommon that armies copy and then produce weapons from other armies, like the AK47 on the flag!

Tulwar handled khukris are, or the result of nepali influence over indian population, or the influence of the indian culture over the nepali weapons, isn't it?

Other cultures could be just as important

but the original weapon the gorkhas carried at the beginning of the nepali state was the kora, and not the khukri, which is a latter weapon

Says who?

You will notice the absolute lack of khunda in these historical paintings from a Nepalese museum
This is a scene from a famous battle in the unification of Nepal

And this is a scene from the Anglo Nepali war;

So perhaps some western collectors are more hung up on the khunda than the Nepalese?
But as mentioned before I am in contact with three top Nepalese historians, and whatever their view is I will pass it on.

Cheers Simon

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi Simon,

Since this thread started, an update from Khuda to Khunda has occured. This is very good to know, but also emphasises the strong point, that to avoid confusion, there is nothing wrong with the well reccognised term Kora being used just to ensure we are all on the same page.

When the research is complete, and the definite name and spelling is ensured, then change could be introduced......(Just like Bodecia and Boudicca...but don't quote me on the spelling!!)

Re the Kora /Khunda, It appears Rawson and J.Paul as well as Eggerton, believed this to be the earlier weapon of Nepal,, and lost favour to the khukri in more modern times (18th Century?) I was just reading about this somewhere, and must re-find it!

I am afraid I have nothing to add from my own 'wisdom'...only what has been written by others, either correctly or incorrectly!

BTW, May I ask when the above illustration was made?
It has occured to me how often historical paintings often show representations of contemporay fashion and armament.....(Like clothing and weaponry of the middle-ages depicted on a fair few paintings of Biblical scenes.) Not saying this is the case here, but the thought came to mind.

Thanks Simon,

All the best,

Richard.

[sirupate]

I understand the point your making Richard, except that the khuda and khunda spellings are Nepalese rather than an English interpretation, and therefore more acurate than kora.
Certainley in old folk tales the kukri was in use well before the 18th century both as a weapon and as a tool, and in the old armies of Nepal the kukri was very much in use in battles as shown in the pictures.
Of course the gentleman you refer to were pioneers and have undoubtedly had a major influence on the way some collectors look at Nepalese weaponry, but where they right?
I think the big difference here is, that I am speaking to Nepalese Scholars/Historians on the subject, two of them can trace their lineage right back to Prithvi times, and tell of their families part in those times!

[Pukka Bundook]

You make a very good point Simon, re. "were they, (The early European scholars) Right?"

An "outsider" may be as accurate in his works as a native, but he also may not be!
I'm from Yorkshire, and if a Nepalese chap was writing about "my" history, I would treat it with suspicion, ..at least 'till I'd read it!

I do wish I could remember what I was reading recently!
It was about the kukri, Ram dao and Kora. and mentioned those with inscriptions actually being written in an Indian language (Forget what)

Seems the Ram dao inscriptions tied them firmly to Bengal, as though they were made and used there, but subsequently 'died out' in that area, and were only left in Hindu Nepal.
Where did I read that seeing Nepal, is seeing India as it was?

Must be quiet now. At least until I find my information!

Cheers,

Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

I must say this has proven to be a most challenging thread! In all honesty I have only had cursory knowledge of both the kukri and the kora, and obviously my comments reflect the distance from the earlier research and study I did concerning them. As I noted earlier, and along with Richard, I have been trying to retrace notes and references....especially faced with the apparantly very focused work that Simon is using to carefully annotate the observations in these discussions.

After several hours I think I have made some progress, so will try to express my perspective concerning the comments I have made on the kukri and the kora in a manner that will hopefully be adequately acceptable, considering the well qualified company present in this discussion.

Some very good points are raised with the long standing questions on the veracity of the references that have long stood in place concerning the history of these weapons. Obviously, continued research (thankfully) will revise our understanding with new and presumably well supported evidence on the history of these and many weapon forms.

The comments I made earlier were based on apparantly Rawson ("The Indian Sword", N.Y. 1968), Egerton, discussions and material from John Powell, and private communications with the late Byron Farwell.....most of which took place over nine or so years ago.
Simon, apparantly that was where I must have gotten the thoughts on the use of the kora ( I agree with Richard, for the sake of this discussion it is better to hold to the generally held term) by the Gurkhas. It may have been from Brian, or perhaps Rawson, who notes on p.52, "...the kora is the battle sabre of the Gurkhas", and cites as his reference Mill & Wilsons "History of India", describing the Gurkha defense of the Tamta stockade in the 1814-16 war (Egerton. p.38).
Rawson again notes on p.53, "...the kora is probably the old sword of the Gurkhas and it may well be that thier phenomenal military success was largely due to their possession of such a terribly effective weapon".

Gonzalo, excellently stated thoughts on the proper approach to the study of these weapons. From what I have understood, again primarily from Rawson (p.54) the kukri type blade was among Hindu type weapons brought into the Nepali regions by Rajput ruling class in medieval times. He notes on p.52, that "...despite the fact that in modern times the kukri has come to be regarded as the national weapon of the Gurkhas, its form shows that it is a weapon of purely Indian descent, related to the kopis bladed sword of Ajanta, and the modern Rajput sosun pattah".

Further, "...the direct ancestor of the kukri was no doubt the sword with a kopis blade, but in the blades of certain kukris it is clear that the conception of the forward angled blade, not the pure kopis, underlies the form".

As you have noted, it is not so much the kopis, but the forward curved or forward angled blade, which holds very plausible influence. It is indeed unclear on the use of the 'kopis' by the Greeks, who incorporated many ethnic groups among thier forces and the forward angled blades seem more probably from the khopesh of Egypt, the sappara of Mesopotamia, the machaira of Iberia and the Celtibereans. The application of the term, as we have seen, certainly must have had a degree of misperception, between machaira and kopis in particular. It seems that the Greeks, with the exception of mounted forces, preferred the straight xiphos sword over the kopis or curved blade forms.
It seems this terminology was addressed by the author you noted, Fernando Quesada Sanz, in "Machaira, Kopis, Falcata" in 'Homenaje a Francisco Torrent' , Madrid, 1994, p.75-94.


Some very good information was posted on this forum on November 21st, 2007 in an article titled "The Origins of the Kukri" by V.K.Kunwor. In this it is noted that Alexanders cavalry carried the forward curved machaira, which is not of Greek origin, but probably Illyrian in form dating to 6th c.BC or possibly related to the Celtiberian falcata.

I feel like I have regained at least some perspective on the kukri and the kora with tonights revisit to old sources, and look forward to the much expected revisions which will I am sure render the material I have noted more up to date.

With all best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Pukka, Jim, I take your responses as mine. I agree with your comments.

But I also would like to have more information about this older presence of the khukri, and to have an aproximate date of the first mentions about it in the nepali literature. Is there a date of this writtings-stories-traditions? Is it an oral or a writting tradition, in the first place? This point would add interesting information, if there is any valid and accessible source on this subject. I mean, some references we can see or check personally.

Jim, I think the problem is to demonstrate the material possibility those influences could arrive from the transitory passing of Alexander´s troops in the northwest India, as far as to Ajanta or to south India. I do not doubt there are such representations there, but it seems nobody who I have some contact with of some kind, knows of this representations but from the same literary references. And I would like to see this representations and check the possible relationship among them (the kopis and the indian down curved weapons). Your mention of the mesopotamic weapon is a good point.
Regards

Gonzalo

[sirupate]

Hello Jim,

It may have been from Brian, or perhaps Rawson, who notes on p.52, "...the kora is the battle sabre of the Gurkhas", and cites as his reference Mill & Wilsons "History of India", describing the Gurkha defense of the Tamta stockade in the 1814-16 war (Egerton. p.38).

The only problem with that is that there is no mention of the word kora! pg.38 in Egerton's book says 'using their heavy semi-circular ended swords with great effect'! British military accounts only refer to the use of the kukri, especialy with regard to the much written about battle of Kalunga. Also the kukri has historically been referred to as sword by many people as long as I can rememeber. An example of that is in the 1992 published book 'Quartered Safe Out Here' by the late George MacDonald Fraser describes them in this way 'the other essential sidearm was the kukri, the curved short sword of the Gurkha', sound similar? Keeping in mind IA issue kukri of WWII were generaly a lot shorter than the fighting kukri of old.
Also from 'The travels of India and Nepal' by Rev. Wood 1896 he talks about the kukri but no mention of the khunda being used against our troops!

'heavy semi-circular ended swords' could esily be these;

Some very good information was posted on this forum on November 21st, 2007 in an article titled "The Origins of the Kukri" by V.K.Kunwor

A prominent Nepalese historian has discounted the articule

From what I have understood, again primarily from Rawson (p.54) the kukri type blade was among Hindu type weapons brought into the Nepali regions by Rajput ruling class in medieval times.

I very much doubt it, if they were one would have thought that the early fighting kukri of Nepal would have had Rajput style handles? They don't.

Hello Gonzalo,

This currentley being re-searched, and of course I have to leave some info for the book!

Cheers Simon