Random chosen pictures of the Oriental beauties

[wolviex]

You're welcome Rick

Everybody: please, feel free to comment, I would like to know more your opinions, while my knowledge about Orient is still not satisying.

Regards

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wow Wolviex, my dear brother in arms you are a lucky man indeed , I almost pooped in my pants at the sight of these pics , pardon my French !
Royal quality pieces and my hat is off to you for your photographic quality standards ! I lost my sense of speech until further notice ...

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Michel,
Thank you for posting these fantastic items! Yes, these photos are very much of Jens' superb quality, I couldn't agree more.

I can offer some observations on some of the items.
1. the dagger seems to correspond with 19th c. Ottoman examples in the style of dress, but is very close to the Indian jambia daggers as well. The 'lizard' most likely represents the salamander, which has been held very important in early symbolism and allegories, especially alchemical. Its association with fire may have similar ties to the phoenix, which also appears on oriental weapons in allegorical symbolism.
2. The niello Persian style hilt is indeed Caucasian from Georgia, while the blade is most likely a Chechen work.These straight sabres resemble those used by Khevsur tribal warriors from the high mountain regions of Georgia, however this example's quality far exceeds those usually found from those enclaves. These high quality Georgian sabres were often presentation pieces from the 19th century used as diplomatic gifts by Georgian princes.
3. The yataghan is a beautiful example, probably late 18th to the early years of the 19th. There is considerable debate about examples with these studded hilts, and they seem to be typically Balkan as this feature seems to correspond with similar studded motif on some Bosnian knives and many of the resources list these as Balkan. This certainly does not rule out Turkish provenance though, as these regions were all Ottoman so it is difficult to say precisely. The coral decor has significance which needs more research, both these and turquoise were important in the motif on many weapons from these regions, and most likely carried talismanic meaning in degree.
4. The enameled sabre is most interesting as it is indeed of S.Indian form with the stylized creatures probably being the makara of Hindu mythology which has associations with the god Varuna, Lord of the Deep. In his fantastic new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual" , Dr. Robert Elgood has noted also a similar creature termed 'yali' which is a beneficient protective demon often placed on weapons (p.100). It is also noted that the turned down quillons are of Deccani influence in the example he shows on the page cited.
What is most interesting is that the enamelled motif is as noted, of Lucknow style, however Lucknow is actually in the northern regions of India in Oudh, SE of the Punjab. On p.156 Dr. Elgood references a clearly south Indian katar from Tanjore of the 17th c. which along with a number of others were enamelled sometime in the late 18th to early 19th c. (a drawing of one of these appears in Pant). Possibly this sabre may have been included along with those during this time? More research !!

Hopefully this observations will be helpful in directing further research and discussion as these are wonderful examples and we can learn a lot from them. Thanks again Michel!!! Nicely done

All the best,
Jim

[wolviex]

Friends!

Thank you for your opionions so far, and especially about few words of explanation. Every factual information is at a premium for me. So please, I want more

Jens: although you didn't show yourself here I'm curious your opinions as well, especially as the Indian weapons lover and expert. I hope you're not angry I've used your Name here in the figurative sense - in my opinion it only means "the best" and Jim has confirmed it. Your great close-up pictures were the inspiration for some of my pics.

And it seems to me I owe you few words of explanation for this objects:

1. Indian Helmet (Sind?) is the part of whole armour... well, almost whole, because there is only a jacket while trousers are lost. Everybody who posses "Stara bron w Polskich Zbiorach" by Z. Zygulski - go to p. 226-227, item no. 233;

2. Enamelled sabre: all the fittings are on their proper place - one loose shown on the second picture is just cut off the picture . Please take a look at a leather on sheath with beautiful embossed pattern.

3. Arm-guard - again Z. Zygulski "Stara bron.." p. 210, no. 219;

4. Beautiful parade axe, Persian, with the miniature of Ali and his sons: Hassan and Husein. Ali has the Zulfikar sabre (?) ("Stara bron..." p. 239, no. 246)

5. Caucasian sabre - what I like most, is the very nice silver and gold incrustation (made only on one side) (again "Stara bron..." p. 244, no. 252c)

6. Turkish sabre - phenomenal (IMO) pattern visible on close-up picture: engraved in steel floral design with gilded, a little coarse background. Gold incrustation on the other side is very nice too.

7. Yatagan was published probably in "War and Peace" catalogue ("Wojna i Pokoj" in Polish), but I don't have this book at the hand right now.

8. On this picture we can see: powder-horn, small box probably for an oil or wax, and the powder-measure - all Persian, probably.

Regards!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 1 & 2 : Chainmal helmet with face mask - NorthWestern Indian, probably Rajput or Sind (if the bird topping the helmet is original it is the Kutch Bhuj area (today`s Pakistan, which I am more and more certain the longer I examine the copper/brass craftsmanship so much in Lahore style) made in Mughal fashion. The mask was used by full clad armored cavalrymen , specialy mounted escorts, paiges and retainers. The helmets inspired by the burkha ( Islamic female veil) are named purdah or purdha. We all know how hard is to accuratelly date Indo-Persian archeological finds due to their extensively long mentained and unchanged style which leaves us at the mercy of apreciating age based on general health and condition of the piece itself which is almost an unsafe thing to base a verdict upon but I take my chance and say 19th century, even though next person that has a solid argument I might not know can make me look like a complete fool in regards to age , however as far as origins and the rest I stand firmly by my affirmations ...


After comming back from work I would be happy to comment on the rest of your stuff ...

[wolviex]

Radu: I think you're near the truth. In my opinion this helmet was made around 19th century, Zygulski dated it on 18th/19th century.

One remark. When I look on the masks from armours like this one (in other museums like Stibbert in Firenze for example) they all seems to me grotesque, while this one is more solemn. Am I wright or it's just my imagination? Any thoughts?

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex, I was updating my thoughts while you already answered, see if you read it all ... as far as the one on Stibert in Firenze, wasnt that a Tartar one ? They are known for adopting the Indo-Persian helmet styles but with more grotesque forms.

[wolviex]

Radu, as far as I can remember this armour was descripted just as a Sind one, but... maybe description wasn't proper... or, I admit, my memory doesn't source me well. Don't have this catalogue at the hand at the moment, so I will check it later.

Thanks for your commitment !

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 3 & 4 : Hindustani Kilij from Mysore. The hilt is of vyaghramukhi (leopard shape) and along with the tehnal ( sheath chape) it is completely covered in meenakari work (Indian style metal enameling). 18th century

The triple animal head shape 2+1 and the enamel and the hilt finish are all characteristics that point towards Mysore region but not exclude others.
Rsword mentions well Lucknow as being the heart of meenakari (Hindustani enameling) and it could be possible that enameling itself was executed there but I would not be absolutelly certain just because it remained the largest centre of such craftsmanship.
Although, many pieces of Indian or Mughal arms and armour were worked on different places like Blades from Persia, brasswork from Lahore , hilts from Tanjore or scabbards from Rajput for example but most times a certain fine pattern or a blend could be observed as being characteristic to one region.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

2. The niello Persian style hilt is indeed Caucasian from Georgia, while the blade is most likely a Chechen work.These straight sabres resemble those used by Khevsur tribal warriors from the high mountain regions of Georgia, however this example's quality far exceeds those usually found from those enclaves. These high quality Georgian sabres were often presentation pieces from the 19th century used as diplomatic gifts by Georgian princes.

1. I would like to express my deepest appreciation for the posting of these pictures.

2. If I may, the question to Jim - why do you think it's chechen ?

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

[Radu Transylvanicus]

The helmet and the armguards are not part of the same armor, they were made centuries and even more miles apart, Pane Wolviexowsky ! Its like putting Colonel Wolodjowsky to fight the Kaiser boys kind of deal ...

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello wolviex,

No I am not angry, I am very pleased, with the pictures and with your kind words.
What you show are fantastic pieces - thank you very much, and the photographing is exelent - I wish I could do it like you have, but I have problems controlling the light.
I have not been able to write as I have been unable to get on the net since Saturday, and only to day the modem or the telephon central for this area has started to behave, although it is very unstable, so to get an answer to you I will send it now, and comment later when things gets more stable.
Interesting comments Radu and Jim.

Thanks - it is a pleasure to see your pictures.

Jens

[wolviex]

Jens: thank you.

Radu: are you going to ruin prof Zygulski work of life
I won't linger discussion about armour I have mentioned before, because of few private reasons and because the pic of it is not here. Anyway, thank you for this remark about "non-compatibility" of this few objects - maybe someday we will continue this further

The parade axe was dated by prof Zygulski as 17th/18th century so far. Well, I'm in hard position now Radu. Prof Zygulski is a great scholar and historian, thanks to him we know in Poland so much about weapons and the world heard about us as well. He is also great specialist of Persian art (not only weapons, but art overall) while I admit, some other scholars are arguing sometimes with him, but still he is the one who wrote about Turkish and Persian arts wide monographs since many years. I can't judge his work while this regions of knowledge are still terra nova for me, but I allow the thought that he may be wrong.
So - Radu, please don't stop your work. But please give some notes with acknowledgments, where did you get this informations (if only it isn't secret and only if you can) they will be helpful as well. Dear Friends - let's discuss also this great Radu's job - any polemics, or confirms?

Thank you once more
Ragards!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

On the axe there is a good chance it might be as early as late 17th I am flexible on that it is the miniature that made me push it a little further, I walk a fine line when aproximate age on the axe thats exactly why I was asking Jans what he thinks about the age of the axe !
My compliments to prof. Zygulski , so far I dont see too much difference between our ideas, as far as "compatibility" if it is to be a display box labeled as "Classic Indo-Persian arms and armour" they are a perfect match but if you shoot for something like "Mughal warrior set - 18th century" then we need to sit down at a round table and talk about it...
Has anyone decrypted the inscription yet?
As far as the miniature isnt it amazing and beautiful that in Persian art even though Islamic, the painting of human figures was not forbidden but even encouraged in splendid images like this, where even though Imam Ali is a crucial character in the Quran as being the messenger and voice of God his physical image and face are not repudiated but embraced making Persia pretty much the only place where pictorial Muslim iconography exists...