Please help on 1796 HC sword marks

fernando · 15th March 2009, 05:02 PM

I have talked with the seller.
Not much on the provenance; only that it was part of a collection, inherited and sold by the family of militaries in Oporto.
The sword knot is back from the shoe maker. It was glued and not sewn, according to his opinnion; not an everlasting job, to my view, but it will do for the time being.
I wish i could discern those stamped letters. Possibly the first and larger one is a B; maybe some day this wil be the track for an ID .
It seems as the I GILL trade mark was active between 1803-1817. I still feed the conviction that this sword was on the field in Portugal, during Napoleonic invasions.

Fernando

.

Ian Knight · 16th December 2009, 08:39 AM

Hello guys,
This is my first post on this Forum although I have been a member on Sword Forum International for a number of years.
Fernando, I believe that I have just purchased a British P1796 HC sabre with Portuguese markings on the knuckleguard. The markings seem to attribute the sword to the 11th Regiment of Dragoons, 2nd troop. There is also a rack number or trooper number 45. I believe that this regiment was present at the Battle of Salamanca.
The sword was actually originally bought together with a French AN XI scabbard which had been altered to allow the sword to fit.
A very interesting piece.
Ian

Rick · 16th December 2009, 07:49 PM

Bump for Ian .

asomotif · 16th December 2009, 08:51 PM

Interesting thread, and congrats Fernando with this impressive sword !

Normally I go for the esthetics and beauty of weapons.
But some dicussion on usage and effects seems logical to me.

The "discussion" about thrust and slash intrigues me.
This is a HC (heavy cavalry) sword.
Straight, long, used for the thrust with a frontal attack.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the same period armies would also have a "Light cavalry" ? The guys with the curved swords ie. mameluke sabres, being used for the slash.
So in a battle both techniques would be used.. Or not

Best regards,
Willem

Ps. excuse me for wandering of from the ethno forum. No offence intended

I have a 1908 pattern troopers sword in case you want me to change my avatar

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2009, 10:05 PM

Ian, thank you so much for joining us here!!!! not only that, but thank you for reviving this fantastic thread

I truly enjoyed the discussion on this one, and it brought forth some excellent details on these M1796 Heavy Cavalry swords.

As an interesting historical note, these huge cavalry swords were developed for the British cavalry from the Austrian M1769 disc hilt cavalry sword.
As a young officer serving with Austrian forces in Flanders, Major General John Gaspard LeMarchant saw the effective use of cavalry swords by the Austrians and sought to develop regulation sword patterns for the British cavalry.

The patterns of 1796 for light and heavy cavalry are of course known as the first officially recognized regulation pattern swords for the British cavalry, with the light cavalry sabre considered one of the deadliest sabres known in Europe at the time. The heavy cavalry sword was not so well received, but it cannot be denied that these were used with devastating effect.

While seemingly intended for thrusting, with the huge straight blades, the tips of the blades were radiused into a hatchet type point, which radiused into a deadly cutting profile intended for chopping type cuts.

The Battle of Salamanca was mentioned , and in a touch of tragic irony, Major General LeMarchant died at the head of his heavy cavalry brigade at this battle on 22 July 1812, with troopers of these regiments of dragoons carrying these very swords.

Again Ian, welcome!!! and Fernando, its great to see this fantastic sword again.
Ian could you please post photos of your M1796?

Willem, please do 'wander' here more often!!! and try to get some of the other guys to do the same

These forums are meant to complement each other , and hopefully the important connections between all these forms of arms and armor will be realized in both ethnographic and European context.

Very good questions you post, and as you have astutely noted, the European cavalry's did operate both heavy and light regiments in different functions in battle. The heavy was the shock action, intended to batter into the enemy positions, while the light was used in flanking attack, pursuit and before combat in reconaissance missions. The huge straight swords of the heavy were intended as earlier noted for heavy chopping action, as well as the thrust as required....while the light cavalry using curved sabres utilized slashing cuts in fast moving combat.

All very best regards,
Jim

P.S. Willem, dont change your avatar

but why not post your M1908?..a great pattern worthy of some interesting discussion

Ian Knight · 17th December 2009, 04:56 PM

Thanks Jim,
I don't have the sword in my possession at the moment, I am still awaiting delivery but I have a few photos.
As mentioned, when originally purchased from a dealer in the U.K. the sword was paired with a French AN XI MK 2 scabbard. Both the scabbard and sword had been altered slightly to enable the sword blade and langets to fit the scabbard. My reasoning is that they were probably paired after a Peninsular War action from items found on the field.
The sword has been re-fitted with a very basic wooden grip which is too big and a poor fit. I have recently fitted my own home made grips to two P1796 LC sabres. I may do the same to this P1796 HC sabre, I haven't yet decided. I have a photo of the markings which isn't too clear. I will re-photograph the grip when the sword is delivered to me.
The blade is maker marked: WOOLLEY DEAKIN & Co.
Unfortunately, the sword and scabbard have recently parted company after a marriage of 200 years. The scabbard has now been re-matched with a French AN XI sabre.
The first photo with the blue background is of a P1796 LC sabre which I recently fitted with a grip made by myself.
Ian

celtan · 17th December 2009, 05:57 PM

Hi Ian, welcome to the EA.

The engravings in your sword could also mean 2nd Regiment, 2nd Company weapon #45, if it ever was in Spanish Hands.

Best

Manuel

fernando · 17th December 2009, 06:02 PM

Hi Ian,
It is so nice to have you here.
Yes, it all indicates that those are portuguese marks.
Mind you, it would be 2nd. Regiment and not 11th. If you observe, this number is in Roman digits (II).
If such were the case, the 2nd. Cavalry was licenced in 1807 to integrate the 3d. Regiment of Army Cavalry, the future so called Portuguese Legion, that was mobilized to serve Napoleon in his international campaings. However your sword could have been marked before this took place.
The initials 2ª Cª fit well as 2nd. Company and the nº 45 could well be the trooper (sergeant-officer?) number.
Obviously my coments should be taken with a certain reserve, as i am no scholar in the matter.
Once again, i register your presence in this Forum with great satisfaction.
Fernando

15th March 2009, 05:02 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I have talked with the seller. Not much on the provenance; only that it was part of a collection, inherited and sold by the family of militaries in Oporto. The sword knot is back from the shoe maker. It was glued and not sewn, according to his opinnion; not an everlasting job, to my view, but it will do for the time being. I wish i could discern those stamped letters. Possibly the first and larger one is a B; maybe some day this wil be the track for an ID . It seems as the I GILL trade mark was active between 1803-1817. I still feed the conviction that this sword was on the field in Portugal, during Napoleonic invasions. Fernando . Attached Images

16th December 2009, 10:05 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Ian, thank you so much for joining us here!!!! not only that, but thank you for reviving this fantastic thread I truly enjoyed the discussion on this one, and it brought forth some excellent details on these M1796 Heavy Cavalry swords. As an interesting historical note, these huge cavalry swords were developed for the British cavalry from the Austrian M1769 disc hilt cavalry sword. As a young officer serving with Austrian forces in Flanders, Major General John Gaspard LeMarchant saw the effective use of cavalry swords by the Austrians and sought to develop regulation sword patterns for the British cavalry. The patterns of 1796 for light and heavy cavalry are of course known as the first officially recognized regulation pattern swords for the British cavalry, with the light cavalry sabre considered one of the deadliest sabres known in Europe at the time. The heavy cavalry sword was not so well received, but it cannot be denied that these were used with devastating effect. While seemingly intended for thrusting, with the huge straight blades, the tips of the blades were radiused into a hatchet type point, which radiused into a deadly cutting profile intended for chopping type cuts. The Battle of Salamanca was mentioned , and in a touch of tragic irony, Major General LeMarchant died at the head of his heavy cavalry brigade at this battle on 22 July 1812, with troopers of these regiments of dragoons carrying these very swords. Again Ian, welcome!!! and Fernando, its great to see this fantastic sword again. Ian could you please post photos of your M1796? Willem, please do 'wander' here more often!!! and try to get some of the other guys to do the same These forums are meant to complement each other , and hopefully the important connections between all these forms of arms and armor will be realized in both ethnographic and European context. Very good questions you post, and as you have astutely noted, the European cavalry's did operate both heavy and light regiments in different functions in battle. The heavy was the shock action, intended to batter into the enemy positions, while the light was used in flanking attack, pursuit and before combat in reconaissance missions. The huge straight swords of the heavy were intended as earlier noted for heavy chopping action, as well as the thrust as required....while the light cavalry using curved sabres utilized slashing cuts in fast moving combat. All very best regards, Jim P.S. Willem, dont change your avatar but why not post your M1908?..a great pattern worthy of some interesting discussion Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th December 2009 at 10:17 PM.

17th December 2009, 04:56 PM	#6
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Thanks Jim, I don't have the sword in my possession at the moment, I am still awaiting delivery but I have a few photos. As mentioned, when originally purchased from a dealer in the U.K. the sword was paired with a French AN XI MK 2 scabbard. Both the scabbard and sword had been altered slightly to enable the sword blade and langets to fit the scabbard. My reasoning is that they were probably paired after a Peninsular War action from items found on the field. The sword has been re-fitted with a very basic wooden grip which is too big and a poor fit. I have recently fitted my own home made grips to two P1796 LC sabres. I may do the same to this P1796 HC sabre, I haven't yet decided. I have a photo of the markings which isn't too clear. I will re-photograph the grip when the sword is delivered to me. The blade is maker marked: WOOLLEY DEAKIN & Co. Unfortunately, the sword and scabbard have recently parted company after a marriage of 200 years. The scabbard has now been re-matched with a French AN XI sabre. The first photo with the blue background is of a P1796 LC sabre which I recently fitted with a grip made by myself. Ian Attached Images Last edited by Ian Knight; 18th December 2009 at 08:17 AM.

16th December 2009, 08:39 AM	#2
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Hello guys, This is my first post on this Forum although I have been a member on Sword Forum International for a number of years. Fernando, I believe that I have just purchased a British P1796 HC sabre with Portuguese markings on the knuckleguard. The markings seem to attribute the sword to the 11th Regiment of Dragoons, 2nd troop. There is also a rack number or trooper number 45. I believe that this regiment was present at the Battle of Salamanca. The sword was actually originally bought together with a French AN XI scabbard which had been altered to allow the sword to fit. A very interesting piece. Ian

16th December 2009, 07:49 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Bump for Ian .

16th December 2009, 08:51 PM	#4
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Thrust or slash ? Interesting thread, and congrats Fernando with this impressive sword ! Normally I go for the esthetics and beauty of weapons. But some dicussion on usage and effects seems logical to me. The "discussion" about thrust and slash intrigues me. This is a HC (heavy cavalry) sword. Straight, long, used for the thrust with a frontal attack. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the same period armies would also have a "Light cavalry" ? The guys with the curved swords ie. mameluke sabres, being used for the slash. So in a battle both techniques would be used.. Or not Best regards, Willem Ps. excuse me for wandering of from the ethno forum. No offence intended I have a 1908 pattern troopers sword in case you want me to change my avatar

17th December 2009, 05:57 PM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Ian, welcome to the EA. The engravings in your sword could also mean 2nd Regiment, 2nd Company weapon #45, if it ever was in Spanish Hands. Best Manuel

17th December 2009, 06:02 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Ian, It is so nice to have you here. Yes, it all indicates that those are portuguese marks. Mind you, it would be 2nd. Regiment and not 11th. If you observe, this number is in Roman digits (II). If such were the case, the 2nd. Cavalry was licenced in 1807 to integrate the 3d. Regiment of Army Cavalry, the future so called Portuguese Legion, that was mobilized to serve Napoleon in his international campaings. However your sword could have been marked before this took place. The initials 2ª Cª fit well as 2nd. Company and the nº 45 could well be the trooper (sergeant-officer?) number. Obviously my coments should be taken with a certain reserve, as i am no scholar in the matter. Once again, i register your presence in this Forum with great satisfaction. Fernando