A Rare 9th-12th Century Saber

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Definitely East European influence, anyway, TVV.

Michael

Agree, but I was just curious, as it could have belonged to a variety of other ethnic groups from the Early Middle Ages. I could not see any reference to the location where this sword was found and wondered if it was known and if there were any reasons for the Magyar or Russian attribution.
Regards,
Teodor

[kronckew]

looks familiar.

mines not been excavated tho (9c magyar sabre repro)

[katana]

Originally Posted by kronckew

looks familiar.

mines not been excavated tho (9c magyar sabre repro)

Ah, a repro.....or are you hiding the fact you have access to a 'time machine'.....

Regards David

[kronckew]

ssshhh! my tardis is double parked and i don't want anyone looking for it, them time clampers are murder.

[katana]

Originally Posted by kronckew

ssshhh! my tardis is double parked and i don't want anyone looking for it, them time clampers are murder.

......'time cops' are just as bad.....caught 'timing'.......874 years an hour... Had gone back for the sword belonging to Spartacus.....when I arrived I confronted Sparticas's army and cried 'which one of you is Spartacus ?' .....a chorus of hundreds of voices said 'I am' ....never did get the sword

I am beginning to think a number of Chinese sword sellers have time machines.....judging by the way their antiques look quite new ....perhaps they haven't realised that carrying old swords through the space/time continuum does not age them

All the best
David

[TVV]

Kronck, to me the blades appear different. The blade on your nice replica seems to be a little more curved and shorter, and the blade on the auction sword to me seems longer and pretty much straight. If so, it could be earlier than what it is dated, and I have seen such blades attributed to the Avars and Bulgars, prior to the Magyar arrival. I guess the Khazars used them as well.
Also, I see the little brass habachi-like element at the ricasso, the function of which I remember was subject to some debate.
Or it is possible that I am not seeing it correctly - it happens to everyone.
Regards,
Teodor

[broadaxe]

Such sabers have been found in excavations in Hungary by certain amounts and can be seen in museums, like the pair in the following photo (taken at the Hussar museum, Eger). However, the habaki-like part shows a connection, if by influence only, to Chinese sabers and should be researched.

[TVV]

Here are some examples of Avar swords, and from the photography I guess these were taken from former Hermann Historica auctions:



As for the habaki-like part, I am not certain whether it was taken from the Chinese or if the Chinese took it from their steppe neighbors.
Regards,
Teodor

[katana]

Originally Posted by TVV

As for the habaki-like part, I am not certain whether it was taken from the Chinese or if the Chinese took it from their steppe neighbors.
Regards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,
with no references to refer to ....I would think , that with the advanced sword making technology that China poccessed (which later travelled to Japan), it is extremely likely that the steppe tribes adopted the habaki-like componant.

Does anyone know if a habaki-like part were used on bronze bladed swords ....(those with a seperate hilt) ?

Regards David

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by TVV

Kronck, to me the blades appear different. The blade on your nice replica seems to be a little more curved and shorter,...

mine has a 29.5 in. blade as opposed to the others 30 1/8", well spotted, that extra 5/8 in. makes all the difference . oddly enough, mine varies from straight also by 5/8 in. in the centre of the blade. it's definitely magyar tho. (the smith is a magyar ) just made a bit later than the one in post #1. no sweated on edge thingy tho.

looks a bit longer in this photo:

it's all in the angles.

p.s. - the thumb ring for me at least is more comfortable with the finger behind the sword guard rather than in front. shown here on a 15c magyar sabre repro, it's even more uncomfortable on the 9c one with it's thicker bronze guard.

[TVV]

Thanks Krock, the angle was fooling me, although to me it still appears that your sabre is curved and the auction sword is straight. From what I have read, the earliest sabres in Europe are attributed to the Avars based on a find in Zillingthal, nowadays Austria, dated to the Early Avar period (late 6th, early 7th century). Of course, dating can be subject to debate, but the graves certainly predate the Magyar arrival.
Overall, it can be really difficult to differentiate between the various steppe peoples in Eurasia from the 6th to the 10th century when it comes to swords.

[kronckew]

drawing a line across the top of the christie photo shows their 'slight curve' to be a bit less than mine, near enough straight.

i had a look at christies site for sale 5427 in london on 17DEC08 and did not see it in there, wonder what the lot no. was. there were a large no. of arms and armour in that sale no. some nice pieces.

Linky to christie's site for past sale 5427